Transcript - Buses in 30 - The future of fares, funding & franchising

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Good afternoon, everyone,

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and welcome to the fifth

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instalment of STEER's

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election reflection series,

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where we're bringing

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together industry experts

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for a 30-minute

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conversation on the impact

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of Labour's agenda across cities,

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transport and infrastructure.

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My name is Neil Chadwick.

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I'm a director here at STEER.

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I'm based in Leeds,

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and my work area focuses on

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transport strategy and public policy.

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Thank you for joining us

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today for this conversation

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about what Labour

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government will mean for buses.

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I'm very grateful to be

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joined by Simon Warburton,

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Executive Director for

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Transport at West Yorkshire

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Combined Authority.

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Before I introduce Simon properly,

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just a note that you'll be

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able to find subtitled

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recordings of this session

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and other sessions on our website,

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steergroup.com.

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As we're talking,

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you'll be able to use the

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comments section to share

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your views as the conversation goes on.

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However,

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given the condensed format of

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these events,

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we won't be responding to

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these comments live,

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but we'll review your

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questions and comments after the event.

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Back to Simon,

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who has been integral to

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Greater Manchester's

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transport policy since 1999

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and now spearheads West

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Yorkshire combined

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authorities transport initiatives.

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His leadership includes

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expanding transport

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infrastructure and

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overseeing a significant £1

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billion plus investment programme

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aimed at enhancing

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multimodal transport to

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meet the daily needs of

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West Yorkshire's 2.3 million residents.

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Welcome, Simon.

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So, Simon,

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speaking in Manchester on 11 July,

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New Transport Secretary Lou Hague said,

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buses are the lifeboat of communities,

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but the system is broken.

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Change starts now.

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This new government will

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give local leaders the

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tools they need to deliver

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better buses up and down the country.

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our plan will create and

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save vital bus routes by

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giving every community the

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power to take back control

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of their bus services

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through franchising or public ownership.

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And in the King's speech,

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the government announced a

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better buses bill.

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So all the noises are buses

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are going to be a big thing

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for this government.

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So my first

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Let's start the conversation

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today with franchising, if we could.

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On the 14th of March,

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the mayor of West Yorkshire, Tracy Braben,

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and the combined authority

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decided to move from the

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current deregulated system

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to franchising.

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So from your experience of

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palleting the franchise

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assessment here in West

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Yorkshire and before that

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your work in Greater Manchester,

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what would you suggest to

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government can be done to

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reform the process and what

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should be in the Better Buses Bill?

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Over to you Simon.

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Thank you very much, thanks Nick.

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So I think it's probably important,

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first of all,

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just to reflect back on why

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is it that in a number of

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the mayoral combined

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authority areas now we're

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moving into bus franchising models and,

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you know,

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I totally understand that

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the Secretary of State has

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set out political

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statements in that regard.

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If we kind of get beneath that language,

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I think what the analysis

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has suggested for quite some time now

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is that our bus systems in

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our city regions in

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particular have lacked the

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consistency that we believe

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is needed in order to be a

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functioning part of that

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base infrastructure,

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transport infrastructure,

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energy infrastructure,

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and so forth that support a

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successful place.

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So the approach that we're

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taking is very much a

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customer-focused approach,

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but not a customer-focused

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approach that is simply

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about soft measures,

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as we've always tended to

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see it in the transport industry,

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but is about sort of hard realities.

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that we have a cohort of

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society who remain very

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dependent on our bus

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networks and have been open

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to something of a postcode

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lottery in terms of the

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level of the service that

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they receive depending on

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who happens to be running

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their local buses.

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and that has held back the

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travel horizons in some

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places in amongst those

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communities and holding

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back travel horizons means

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that that we're holding

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back people's economic

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horizons as well so so if

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you want to be able to achieve growth in

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what we might term our most

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foundation economy,

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then we have to be able to

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take that constraint away.

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And then the second element

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has been that that

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inconsistency in terms of

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the offer has meant that

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those who do have a choice

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have increasingly taken the

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choice to travel by car

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with all of the certainty.

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as they would see it,

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that CAR has to offer.

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So we've got two groups in society,

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both of whom are in need of

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a different offer.

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And that's why we're

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bringing forward the

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proposals and we're

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bringing forward now the

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model in West Yorkshire

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uh for franchising

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franchising I must stress

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is about making the best of

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the public and the private

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sector um it's very

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different proposition to

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municipalization for

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example um and so this is

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still very much about

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public and private sector

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working together but

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working together within

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a consistent framework.

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So when we look at the

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legislation that

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government's now bringing forward,

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for those places like

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ourselves where the

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decision has already been taken, we would

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probably advise back into

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government that there may

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well be some aspects of the

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process that we have been

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through now that could be simplified.

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And I tread carefully in that regard,

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because the decisions that

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are taken to move to

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franchising are very serious decisions.

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They do have impact on businesses.

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and so they need to be taken carefully.

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So there's maybe some elements there,

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but actually we're probably

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most focused on what else

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would we like to see to

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strengthen our model.

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From a powers perspective,

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I think there's probably two elements.

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One,

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we need to make sure that

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we've got the right

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provisions in place for a

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circumstance where a

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franchisee finds themselves

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in a difficult economic

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position which may be

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something that's driven by

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their wider business as

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opposed to necessarily the

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business within the franchise

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and that we can move to

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ensure that a service is

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maintained for the travelling public.

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In essence,

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that's like the equivalent of a

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rail operator.

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Operator of last resort.

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And we need to make sure

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that that process is as

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simple as possible because

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maintaining the network is fundamental.

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And then beyond that,

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what we're looking at is

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making sure that we can

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address all of the aspects

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that have held people back

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from choosing bus.

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And one aspect in particular

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that's really come to the

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fore as we've worked

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through devolution

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discussions with government

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is actually around the

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potential for us to

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strengthen measures against

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antisocial behaviour on public transport.

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So we're very keen to see the ability

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excuse me,

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for us to establish bylaws on

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our bus systems in very

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much the same way that we

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see on heavy rail and light rail systems.

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So that the PCSO models that

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we've all started to roll

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out have got real bite to them.

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Thinking about that,

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that's really interesting.

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You set out the motivation,

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the consistency of service

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and making sure that

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there's a better quality

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alternative to car travel

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for those who do have a choice.

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In terms of the franchising

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process itself you've gone through,

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essentially three stages.

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You've done the franchising assessment,

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and then there's an audit,

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and then you have consultation on that.

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And my colleagues across the

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office who've supported you

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through that process,

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and along with your

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financial advisors at PwC

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and your legals from DLA,

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you'll appreciate that's

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quite a long and an extensive process.

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Now, you've gone through that,

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so any change in

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legislation is not going to help you.

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But just thinking about

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others who might be thinking about it,

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Do you think if there's a

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change in the law to have a

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presumption in favour of franchising?

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So essentially what you're

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doing at the moment is the

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presumption is in favour of

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the current system and you

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have to show why you want to change it.

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But if you change the law so

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there's a presumption in

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favour of franchising,

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that could potentially,

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for those others who think

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you're going through this process,

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simplify the matter greatly.

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So I think there's a logic to that,

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given where the process has got to now.

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But in the same way as the

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balance of the presumption

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at the moment then caused a

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debate around what are the

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unintended consequences of

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that presumption,

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and there were some

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elements that were sort of

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built into the process.

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to handle that equally,

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we need to ensure that

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there aren't unintended

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consequences of that presumption.

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And I think in particular,

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the element that we've all

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been very acutely aware of

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is how we maintain a

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diversity within the bus market.

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And the diversity in

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particular that we are all

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very sensitive to maintain

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is to ensure that there's a

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good healthy space within a

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franchising marketplace for

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smaller operators.

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who do have very focused

00:11:55.450 --> 00:11:57.971
skill sets on discrete

00:11:58.032 --> 00:12:01.214
markets so that they're not

00:12:01.534 --> 00:12:03.275
crowded out through the

00:12:03.316 --> 00:12:04.317
franchising process.

00:12:04.356 --> 00:12:06.337
So I think the presumption is right.

00:12:07.538 --> 00:12:09.980
But I'd want us to be

00:12:10.020 --> 00:12:12.042
working very closely with CPT,

00:12:12.101 --> 00:12:12.802
who I think have been

00:12:12.861 --> 00:12:14.182
excellent in terms of the

00:12:14.222 --> 00:12:15.043
way in which they've

00:12:15.604 --> 00:12:16.124
developed their

00:12:16.163 --> 00:12:19.527
capabilities through the last few years,

00:12:20.067 --> 00:12:21.147
just to make sure that we

00:12:21.187 --> 00:12:21.888
would get that right.

00:12:22.467 --> 00:12:23.708
Okay, that's quite nice,

00:12:23.729 --> 00:12:24.448
because that naturally

00:12:24.489 --> 00:12:26.971
moves me on to my second topic.

00:12:27.451 --> 00:12:28.831
You've put an awful lot of

00:12:28.892 --> 00:12:29.812
effort to get to the

00:12:31.024 --> 00:12:32.885
decision to go franchising,

00:12:33.485 --> 00:12:34.606
but in some ways you've

00:12:34.626 --> 00:12:35.388
done the easy bit now.

00:12:35.408 --> 00:12:36.668
You've got a hard bit to do,

00:12:36.708 --> 00:12:37.549
which is to make from the

00:12:37.590 --> 00:12:39.111
decision to do franchising

00:12:39.351 --> 00:12:40.192
to implement it.

00:12:40.893 --> 00:12:42.894
So when will we see

00:12:43.335 --> 00:12:44.636
franchise bus services

00:12:45.037 --> 00:12:46.498
running in West Yorkshire and

00:12:48.052 --> 00:12:48.633
What do you see as the

00:12:48.673 --> 00:12:50.573
immediate challenges as you

00:12:50.614 --> 00:12:52.796
move into this implementation phase?

00:12:54.238 --> 00:12:58.380
So we've got a three-trench

00:12:58.520 --> 00:13:02.424
approach to franchising in

00:13:02.465 --> 00:13:03.125
West Yorkshire.

00:13:04.225 --> 00:13:06.849
Trench one effectively

00:13:06.908 --> 00:13:09.610
handles the South West.

00:13:11.232 --> 00:13:13.034
of the conurbation.

00:13:13.075 --> 00:13:14.996
Tranche 2 largely handles

00:13:15.837 --> 00:13:17.759
the east of the conurbation

00:13:17.779 --> 00:13:19.623
and then Tranche 3 the

00:13:19.682 --> 00:13:22.905
northwest of the conurbation.

00:13:23.106 --> 00:13:23.866
Over the next couple of

00:13:23.907 --> 00:13:26.009
weeks we'll have concluded

00:13:26.029 --> 00:13:27.532
a contemporary review of

00:13:27.591 --> 00:13:28.873
the network and we'll set

00:13:28.972 --> 00:13:30.195
out a network map

00:13:31.272 --> 00:13:33.553
um that clarifies um which

00:13:33.614 --> 00:13:35.855
services um we see um in

00:13:35.914 --> 00:13:37.155
each of those that those

00:13:37.336 --> 00:13:38.557
those three three tranches

00:13:39.038 --> 00:13:41.239
first tranche we bring to

00:13:41.278 --> 00:13:43.561
the market um in october

00:13:43.561 --> 00:13:45.361
2025 for operation in

00:13:45.442 --> 00:13:48.104
spring 27 and the process

00:13:48.144 --> 00:13:50.105
then continues such that by

00:13:50.125 --> 00:13:54.187
um autumn 2028 we've got a

00:13:54.227 --> 00:13:56.009
fully franchised bus system

00:13:56.769 --> 00:13:58.750
operational there's a big

00:13:58.812 --> 00:14:00.753
mobilization program that's

00:14:00.873 --> 00:14:05.275
underway I took a report to

00:14:05.755 --> 00:14:08.278
the combined authority just

00:14:08.298 --> 00:14:11.520
this this last week setting

00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:13.282
out how we've organized

00:14:13.341 --> 00:14:14.663
ourselves around that

00:14:14.682 --> 00:14:16.244
approach and we see five

00:14:16.464 --> 00:14:18.946
elements to the change

00:14:19.686 --> 00:14:21.326
program so there's a

00:14:21.687 --> 00:14:22.567
there's a customer

00:14:23.408 --> 00:14:25.730
transition program which is driven by

00:14:26.884 --> 00:14:29.225
a branding exercise which

00:14:29.466 --> 00:14:30.727
whilst it will determine

00:14:31.248 --> 00:14:32.009
what colour might you want

00:14:32.028 --> 00:14:33.048
the buses to look like is

00:14:33.090 --> 00:14:34.311
not actually about what

00:14:34.350 --> 00:14:35.390
colour do you want the buses.

00:14:36.231 --> 00:14:36.993
That's the bit that's going

00:14:37.013 --> 00:14:38.514
to cause the most disruption isn't it?

00:14:38.533 --> 00:14:39.634
The most important bit

00:14:39.715 --> 00:14:42.476
obviously but it's about

00:14:42.998 --> 00:14:45.259
setting out how an

00:14:45.340 --> 00:14:46.600
organisation and its

00:14:46.681 --> 00:14:50.904
partners come together around an entire

00:14:51.764 --> 00:14:54.167
customer proposition and is

00:14:54.226 --> 00:14:55.187
really fundamental.

00:14:55.326 --> 00:14:56.668
The second element is around

00:14:56.707 --> 00:14:58.448
network planning and management.

00:14:59.509 --> 00:15:01.770
We know that we need to step

00:15:01.971 --> 00:15:03.591
on in terms of the way in

00:15:03.611 --> 00:15:04.712
which we coordinate the

00:15:04.753 --> 00:15:05.994
management of the highways

00:15:06.053 --> 00:15:07.294
network in West Yorkshire

00:15:07.955 --> 00:15:10.316
to support the best

00:15:10.355 --> 00:15:12.337
possible functioning bus network.

00:15:13.337 --> 00:15:14.197
And we also need to build

00:15:14.238 --> 00:15:15.259
capability inside the

00:15:15.298 --> 00:15:18.820
organisation to plan an entire network.

00:15:19.379 --> 00:15:20.019
Third element.

00:15:20.539 --> 00:15:22.561
That management side is not just you,

00:15:22.581 --> 00:15:23.441
the combined authority,

00:15:23.461 --> 00:15:24.162
but it's working with your

00:15:24.182 --> 00:15:25.081
district partners.

00:15:25.241 --> 00:15:26.341
Very much so.

00:15:26.542 --> 00:15:27.982
Potentially thinking about

00:15:28.003 --> 00:15:29.182
moving traffic offences,

00:15:29.403 --> 00:15:30.903
bus lane enforcement, et cetera,

00:15:30.943 --> 00:15:31.283
et cetera.

00:15:32.304 --> 00:15:33.947
It's exactly that,

00:15:34.006 --> 00:15:36.009
and it's also about how we

00:15:36.049 --> 00:15:37.772
move to that next stage of

00:15:38.732 --> 00:15:41.216
managing events around our

00:15:41.235 --> 00:15:42.457
transport system as well,

00:15:42.498 --> 00:15:43.940
which increasingly present

00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:45.061
themselves as our cities

00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:46.562
become more dynamic places.

00:15:51.024 --> 00:15:52.304
The third element is the

00:15:52.345 --> 00:15:54.745
rest of the systems piece, if you like,

00:15:55.206 --> 00:15:56.666
which is around data and digital.

00:15:58.105 --> 00:16:01.626
So we become the owners of

00:16:02.246 --> 00:16:03.508
significant market data.

00:16:03.548 --> 00:16:04.548
We need to make sure that we

00:16:04.567 --> 00:16:07.187
can use the data to good effect.

00:16:07.368 --> 00:16:08.328
In order to do that,

00:16:08.389 --> 00:16:11.349
we need good systems in the back office.

00:16:11.869 --> 00:16:12.769
And there's a whole program

00:16:12.789 --> 00:16:14.049
kicking off around that.

00:16:14.889 --> 00:16:17.693
Fourth area is around the physical assets.

00:16:18.995 --> 00:16:21.399
So we set out in our plan an

00:16:21.458 --> 00:16:23.601
intention to have to take

00:16:23.682 --> 00:16:24.783
ownership of the nine

00:16:24.984 --> 00:16:26.525
largest depots to build a

00:16:26.606 --> 00:16:27.847
tenth large depot.

00:16:29.370 --> 00:16:31.493
And there's a process that's now starting

00:16:32.094 --> 00:16:33.054
of inspection of those

00:16:33.095 --> 00:16:35.135
depots and incumbent

00:16:35.296 --> 00:16:35.975
operators have been

00:16:35.995 --> 00:16:37.898
incredibly supportive in

00:16:37.937 --> 00:16:39.158
helping us to get that going.

00:16:39.938 --> 00:16:40.759
We also want to move our

00:16:40.818 --> 00:16:42.921
fleet strategy on as well.

00:16:43.921 --> 00:16:45.162
And then the final element

00:16:45.302 --> 00:16:47.302
is around the contracting process itself.

00:16:47.363 --> 00:16:49.644
So we haven't written for bus franchise

00:16:50.445 --> 00:16:51.926
of bus franchises before.

00:16:52.885 --> 00:16:54.106
It's a competitive market.

00:16:54.147 --> 00:16:55.368
We need to make sure that we

00:16:55.408 --> 00:16:57.509
play our role in managing

00:16:57.568 --> 00:16:58.328
that process in a

00:16:58.389 --> 00:16:59.690
competitive market very well.

00:16:59.710 --> 00:17:04.472
And so that whole change

00:17:04.553 --> 00:17:06.114
process involves a series

00:17:06.153 --> 00:17:07.374
of activities that we do

00:17:07.574 --> 00:17:09.935
once over and they then

00:17:10.016 --> 00:17:12.096
embed themselves into the organisation.

00:17:13.076 --> 00:17:14.337
And so in common with the

00:17:14.377 --> 00:17:15.219
approach that we took in

00:17:15.259 --> 00:17:16.059
Greater Manchester,

00:17:16.099 --> 00:17:17.500
we will largely run the

00:17:17.560 --> 00:17:19.402
first cycle through to the

00:17:19.442 --> 00:17:21.743
end of 28 as a program.

00:17:22.203 --> 00:17:24.246
We're building that program complement.

00:17:24.326 --> 00:17:28.147
We just recently identified and apologies,

00:17:28.188 --> 00:17:29.108
I can't remember whether

00:17:29.148 --> 00:17:30.710
we've clarified to the market or not,

00:17:30.769 --> 00:17:32.511
so I won't name them for the moment.

00:17:33.416 --> 00:17:35.638
a consortium of professional

00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:40.022
services partners to work with us,

00:17:40.083 --> 00:17:41.683
particularly in support of

00:17:42.144 --> 00:17:44.185
those commercial elements

00:17:44.666 --> 00:17:45.788
within the proposition.

00:17:46.647 --> 00:17:47.808
And over the next few weeks,

00:17:48.730 --> 00:17:51.471
I'll be advertising with

00:17:51.511 --> 00:17:53.473
the support of a recruitment company,

00:17:54.295 --> 00:17:55.736
the recruitment for a

00:17:56.436 --> 00:17:58.739
transition program director

00:17:58.798 --> 00:17:59.858
to oversee the program.

00:18:00.980 --> 00:18:02.321
And then the organisation

00:18:02.402 --> 00:18:03.702
learns alongside that

00:18:03.742 --> 00:18:05.003
programme over the next

00:18:05.084 --> 00:18:06.785
four years and teaches

00:18:06.865 --> 00:18:08.386
itself how to become a

00:18:08.446 --> 00:18:09.508
franchising authority.

00:18:10.188 --> 00:18:12.911
A really substantial body of

00:18:12.971 --> 00:18:14.071
work that has to be done.

00:18:14.271 --> 00:18:15.152
And at the end of this,

00:18:15.172 --> 00:18:17.453
the combined authority is

00:18:17.473 --> 00:18:18.996
going to look like a

00:18:19.056 --> 00:18:20.757
different organisation than it does now.

00:18:20.777 --> 00:18:21.557
Yeah.

00:18:22.846 --> 00:18:24.327
Yeah, very much so, Neil.

00:18:24.448 --> 00:18:26.108
And if we bear in mind, of course,

00:18:26.509 --> 00:18:28.010
that at the same time we're

00:18:28.050 --> 00:18:29.092
bringing forward the first

00:18:29.172 --> 00:18:30.773
two tram lines through the

00:18:30.814 --> 00:18:33.155
mass transit programme, then

00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:34.779
Yes,

00:18:34.859 --> 00:18:36.780
it's our intention that by the end of

00:18:36.780 --> 00:18:37.882
2028,

00:18:37.882 --> 00:18:40.643
we are a body which is running a

00:18:40.682 --> 00:18:42.403
franchise bus system and

00:18:42.523 --> 00:18:45.226
starting to deliver a tram system.

00:18:45.246 --> 00:18:46.586
And that's a fundamental

00:18:46.625 --> 00:18:48.866
step change in the organization.

00:18:49.788 --> 00:18:50.607
In terms of the work you've

00:18:50.627 --> 00:18:53.210
got to do to get to franchising,

00:18:53.250 --> 00:18:54.069
and then once you're in

00:18:54.109 --> 00:18:56.510
that franchise world 2028,

00:18:56.510 --> 00:18:58.211
maintain that franchising system.

00:18:59.432 --> 00:18:59.692
To me,

00:18:59.732 --> 00:19:00.913
that's going to be one of the really

00:19:00.953 --> 00:19:03.494
big challenges for the further

00:19:04.214 --> 00:19:05.816
roll out of franchising elsewhere,

00:19:06.715 --> 00:19:08.998
combined authorities are

00:19:09.018 --> 00:19:10.178
well-resourced and I think

00:19:10.258 --> 00:19:12.598
a lot of unitary authorities,

00:19:12.638 --> 00:19:13.640
county councils will look

00:19:13.660 --> 00:19:14.440
with sort of green-eyed

00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:16.461
envy at some of the

00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:17.342
leverage that you have

00:19:17.422 --> 00:19:18.342
around that resource.

00:19:19.123 --> 00:19:20.083
Do you think looking ahead,

00:19:20.182 --> 00:19:21.284
once you have those systems

00:19:21.304 --> 00:19:22.904
and processes established,

00:19:22.924 --> 00:19:25.105
there's opportunity to share that?

00:19:25.246 --> 00:19:25.465
You know,

00:19:25.506 --> 00:19:27.547
you could help the smaller cities,

00:19:27.586 --> 00:19:28.488
the smaller authorities

00:19:28.567 --> 00:19:30.128
around Yorkshire and

00:19:30.169 --> 00:19:32.430
elsewhere get to that franchising stage?

00:19:33.103 --> 00:19:33.803
Definitely so.

00:19:34.364 --> 00:19:35.344
We're all on a journey here.

00:19:35.364 --> 00:19:36.944
We're all learning.

00:19:37.204 --> 00:19:38.746
Even the Great and Mighty

00:19:38.786 --> 00:19:40.126
Transport for Greater Manchester,

00:19:40.186 --> 00:19:42.948
who I moved on from,

00:19:45.390 --> 00:19:48.050
has been on a huge learning exercise.

00:19:48.351 --> 00:19:50.553
And there's already very,

00:19:50.613 --> 00:19:52.554
very significant dialogue

00:19:52.594 --> 00:19:54.015
within the urban transport group

00:19:55.516 --> 00:19:58.179
to share good practice,

00:19:58.338 --> 00:20:00.882
to deliver efficiency

00:20:00.922 --> 00:20:02.503
through shared knowledge as

00:20:02.564 --> 00:20:03.345
much as we can.

00:20:04.105 --> 00:20:05.948
And we have to continue that process.

00:20:06.387 --> 00:20:09.551
And it may well be that as matters evolve,

00:20:09.612 --> 00:20:11.713
there's a role for the

00:20:11.753 --> 00:20:12.615
sub-national transport

00:20:12.654 --> 00:20:14.917
bodies as well to support

00:20:16.038 --> 00:20:17.019
Some parts with that in the

00:20:17.059 --> 00:20:18.200
same way that they've been

00:20:18.220 --> 00:20:19.280
doing a great job in terms

00:20:19.361 --> 00:20:20.521
of supporting with

00:20:20.721 --> 00:20:22.063
transport analysis as well.

00:20:22.163 --> 00:20:23.103
So, yeah,

00:20:23.123 --> 00:20:25.044
there are models to be put in place yet,

00:20:25.345 --> 00:20:26.384
but that principle has to

00:20:26.404 --> 00:20:27.226
be the right principle.

00:20:27.246 --> 00:20:29.886
So one of the things that

00:20:29.926 --> 00:20:31.228
Lou Haig talks about was

00:20:31.728 --> 00:20:33.368
removing the barrier to

00:20:34.190 --> 00:20:36.191
public ownership of bus companies.

00:20:36.211 --> 00:20:37.951
But a little earlier on,

00:20:37.991 --> 00:20:39.972
you said you are not looking at that.

00:20:39.992 --> 00:20:40.913
I think you called it

00:20:41.153 --> 00:20:42.634
municipalization of them.

00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:46.482
this stage you're not sort

00:20:46.502 --> 00:20:47.384
of thinking of the fact

00:20:47.424 --> 00:20:48.346
that you know there could

00:20:48.385 --> 00:20:49.868
be the the west yorkshire

00:20:49.888 --> 00:20:51.112
command authority owned arm

00:20:51.172 --> 00:20:53.256
length company which is up there bidding

00:20:55.548 --> 00:20:55.788
No.

00:20:56.450 --> 00:21:00.753
So what we do agree with the

00:21:00.794 --> 00:21:02.615
government around, and I think we all do,

00:21:02.875 --> 00:21:04.836
is over time,

00:21:05.397 --> 00:21:07.358
it may well be that there is

00:21:07.378 --> 00:21:09.861
a suitable space,

00:21:11.303 --> 00:21:14.965
particularly in extreme circumstances.

00:21:15.006 --> 00:21:15.906
We talked before about

00:21:16.067 --> 00:21:18.148
operator of last resort, for example.

00:21:19.871 --> 00:21:22.855
where that may offer itself

00:21:24.056 --> 00:21:24.977
as an opportunity.

00:21:26.705 --> 00:21:29.288
But we shouldn't overlook

00:21:29.909 --> 00:21:31.630
just what a significant

00:21:31.710 --> 00:21:33.711
change it is to move from

00:21:34.551 --> 00:21:36.692
effectively having been PTEs,

00:21:37.713 --> 00:21:40.296
or if you like, post deregulation PTEs,

00:21:41.596 --> 00:21:44.338
into bus franchises and authorities.

00:21:44.358 --> 00:21:47.500
That's a big step change in itself.

00:21:47.601 --> 00:21:49.281
That is the step change that

00:21:49.301 --> 00:21:50.083
will very much

00:21:52.459 --> 00:21:54.160
focus our efforts in a

00:21:54.200 --> 00:21:55.640
number of different places

00:21:55.740 --> 00:21:57.902
through the remainder of this decade.

00:21:59.082 --> 00:22:00.482
But we do understand that

00:22:00.502 --> 00:22:01.243
the Secretary of State

00:22:01.304 --> 00:22:03.744
wants to be able to offer

00:22:03.845 --> 00:22:06.526
up the broadest toolkit.

00:22:06.645 --> 00:22:07.807
And we do know that there

00:22:07.846 --> 00:22:08.788
are parts of the country

00:22:08.887 --> 00:22:11.528
where arm's length

00:22:11.949 --> 00:22:13.589
municipal bus companies

00:22:13.970 --> 00:22:15.431
were maintained and have

00:22:15.611 --> 00:22:17.392
proved to be really successful models.

00:22:18.012 --> 00:22:18.153
So

00:22:19.032 --> 00:22:19.913
So when I comment,

00:22:19.992 --> 00:22:21.114
I kind of comment from the

00:22:21.153 --> 00:22:22.413
perspective of where we got

00:22:22.473 --> 00:22:25.015
ourselves to as post deregulation PTEs.

00:22:25.595 --> 00:22:25.734
Yeah,

00:22:25.994 --> 00:22:27.756
it's a much more diverse market than

00:22:27.796 --> 00:22:27.955
that.

00:22:28.115 --> 00:22:29.215
I've only ever worked in

00:22:29.395 --> 00:22:31.497
post deregulation PTE territory.

00:22:32.797 --> 00:22:34.297
And so, you know,

00:22:34.978 --> 00:22:35.657
I suspect that the

00:22:35.678 --> 00:22:37.137
Secretary of State is being

00:22:37.157 --> 00:22:39.058
very sensible in broadening

00:22:39.098 --> 00:22:39.818
out the toolkit.

00:22:40.219 --> 00:22:40.419
Sure.

00:22:41.239 --> 00:22:41.660
That's good.

00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:42.579
I mean, one of the

00:22:43.637 --> 00:22:45.859
key things to make franchising success,

00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:46.441
you're going to make the

00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:48.663
money that you do have work hard.

00:22:48.843 --> 00:22:50.804
So on one side of the equation,

00:22:50.845 --> 00:22:52.346
there's going to be the

00:22:52.385 --> 00:22:53.487
costs of the contracts.

00:22:54.208 --> 00:22:55.409
On the other side of the equation,

00:22:55.429 --> 00:22:57.871
there are two sources of funding.

00:22:58.131 --> 00:22:59.751
One is the fare box and

00:23:00.532 --> 00:23:01.513
in your case the combined

00:23:01.534 --> 00:23:02.354
authorities case you've

00:23:02.374 --> 00:23:03.454
taken the decision to take

00:23:04.055 --> 00:23:05.496
that revenue risk the risk

00:23:05.576 --> 00:23:07.136
on and the other side is

00:23:07.237 --> 00:23:09.018
the the funding that comes

00:23:09.077 --> 00:23:10.878
from government in one form

00:23:11.138 --> 00:23:12.239
or another and I think it's

00:23:12.298 --> 00:23:13.519
important to recognize that

00:23:14.340 --> 00:23:15.800
quite substantial amount of

00:23:15.861 --> 00:23:17.461
the funding that goes into

00:23:17.501 --> 00:23:18.863
buses is actually public

00:23:18.883 --> 00:23:20.923
subsidy absolutely it seems

00:23:20.963 --> 00:23:21.984
helpful then to sort of talk

00:23:23.220 --> 00:23:24.300
bit about funding because

00:23:24.461 --> 00:23:25.541
yeah you need to make the

00:23:25.862 --> 00:23:27.324
most out of that so in um

00:23:28.984 --> 00:23:30.406
in bus back better the

00:23:30.446 --> 00:23:31.426
johnson government if you

00:23:31.508 --> 00:23:32.528
if you remember them some

00:23:32.769 --> 00:23:34.971
some time back um committed

00:23:35.030 --> 00:23:36.832
to reform uh bsoc the bus

00:23:36.852 --> 00:23:38.634
service operator grant and

00:23:39.294 --> 00:23:41.115
since then we've had in

00:23:41.135 --> 00:23:42.116
west york we've had mayor's

00:23:42.156 --> 00:23:43.077
fairs and nationally

00:23:43.097 --> 00:23:44.199
there's the two pound

00:23:44.219 --> 00:23:45.059
scheme so that's another

00:23:45.099 --> 00:23:47.161
source of essentially public subsidy

00:23:47.882 --> 00:23:48.721
And then on top of that,

00:23:48.801 --> 00:23:50.482
we have the English

00:23:50.522 --> 00:23:52.203
National Concessionary Fare Scheme here,

00:23:52.463 --> 00:23:53.023
CTS,

00:23:53.064 --> 00:23:55.986
which has likely moved away from

00:23:56.026 --> 00:23:57.006
being a subsidy to the

00:23:57.046 --> 00:23:59.386
passenger to a subsidy for the operator,

00:23:59.406 --> 00:24:00.688
so another form of subsidy.

00:24:01.268 --> 00:24:02.628
So it seems right that the whole

00:24:04.375 --> 00:24:06.855
subsidy system is open to reform,

00:24:07.455 --> 00:24:08.296
thinking about how does it

00:24:08.317 --> 00:24:10.916
work in a franchise context.

00:24:11.557 --> 00:24:12.657
From your perspective,

00:24:13.157 --> 00:24:14.378
from a combined authority,

00:24:14.519 --> 00:24:15.759
where would you like to see

00:24:17.019 --> 00:24:19.240
that subsidy pots go and

00:24:19.280 --> 00:24:20.141
how they're distributed?

00:24:21.071 --> 00:24:21.913
Yeah,

00:24:22.773 --> 00:24:27.038
so it's our view that the time's

00:24:27.077 --> 00:24:29.420
right now to conclude that

00:24:29.480 --> 00:24:31.481
review of bus service

00:24:31.521 --> 00:24:32.823
operators grant for exactly

00:24:32.843 --> 00:24:35.586
the reasons that you've just set out.

00:24:35.965 --> 00:24:37.587
So we have a series of

00:24:37.647 --> 00:24:38.749
different funding streams

00:24:38.949 --> 00:24:40.269
at present and of course we've had

00:24:40.911 --> 00:24:43.872
we've had bsip um in a in a

00:24:43.932 --> 00:24:45.392
very differently uh

00:24:45.511 --> 00:24:48.113
dispersed model um around

00:24:48.153 --> 00:24:56.134
the country well indeed so

00:24:56.454 --> 00:24:58.236
so I think our view would

00:24:58.316 --> 00:25:00.076
be that for all of those

00:25:00.096 --> 00:25:01.876
revenue items that that are

00:25:01.916 --> 00:25:03.297
picked up in in various

00:25:03.336 --> 00:25:05.057
different models the opportunity

00:25:05.798 --> 00:25:09.278
to house as many of those in

00:25:09.439 --> 00:25:11.098
one consistent contemporary

00:25:11.739 --> 00:25:14.299
BSOG model feels like

00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:17.080
absolutely the sensible way

00:25:18.300 --> 00:25:19.560
for us to do that,

00:25:19.740 --> 00:25:21.442
certainly for those places

00:25:21.521 --> 00:25:23.882
that are moving to franchising.

00:25:23.902 --> 00:25:25.903
And we've done a lot of work, again,

00:25:25.942 --> 00:25:27.222
through Urban Transport

00:25:27.262 --> 00:25:31.683
Group to help to shape that thinking.

00:25:32.423 --> 00:25:34.444
And I'm hoping that the whole issue of

00:25:35.558 --> 00:25:37.680
bus revenue is an item that

00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:39.299
is picked up through the

00:25:40.221 --> 00:25:42.082
30th October budget

00:25:42.521 --> 00:25:43.461
position because it's

00:25:43.501 --> 00:25:47.262
incredibly important that it is.

00:25:47.824 --> 00:25:49.163
If for no other reason than

00:25:49.683 --> 00:25:50.845
the National £2 Fair

00:25:50.924 --> 00:25:52.704
actually only currently has

00:25:52.726 --> 00:25:54.145
a funding base until the

00:25:54.185 --> 00:25:55.926
end of the calendar year.

00:25:56.446 --> 00:25:57.626
So we do need to determine

00:25:57.866 --> 00:25:59.768
where we go next on that front.

00:26:00.307 --> 00:26:01.249
We need to look at the

00:26:01.348 --> 00:26:04.130
extent to which there's a balance between

00:26:05.083 --> 00:26:06.644
the certainty of national

00:26:06.663 --> 00:26:09.786
affairs and the commercial

00:26:09.846 --> 00:26:11.386
models that we are moving

00:26:11.406 --> 00:26:13.469
into in franchising areas

00:26:13.588 --> 00:26:14.930
and where do we strike the

00:26:14.970 --> 00:26:16.171
right balance in that regard.

00:26:16.810 --> 00:26:17.892
And then we need to look at,

00:26:17.951 --> 00:26:19.192
you touched on it with Zebra,

00:26:21.134 --> 00:26:22.375
the distinction between

00:26:22.434 --> 00:26:24.155
capital funding and revenue funding,

00:26:24.175 --> 00:26:24.957
which of course plays

00:26:25.017 --> 00:26:26.978
itself out all the more if

00:26:27.057 --> 00:26:29.338
we as the public sector are

00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:30.941
much more at the forefront.

00:26:31.901 --> 00:26:33.162
and there's undoubtedly,

00:26:33.321 --> 00:26:34.342
and we were starting to

00:26:34.402 --> 00:26:35.701
explore this in Greater

00:26:35.721 --> 00:26:38.242
Manchester with CRSTS and Fleet,

00:26:39.203 --> 00:26:40.683
there's undoubtedly the

00:26:40.723 --> 00:26:42.184
opportunity for us to use

00:26:43.005 --> 00:26:45.226
some public capital to take

00:26:45.346 --> 00:26:47.326
pressure off revenue models

00:26:48.086 --> 00:26:50.708
in bus service provision,

00:26:51.268 --> 00:26:52.428
which gives us the

00:26:52.468 --> 00:26:54.449
opportunity to then look at how we can

00:26:55.517 --> 00:26:56.657
be more entrepreneurial

00:26:56.857 --> 00:26:58.880
through a franchising model in growing,

00:26:59.299 --> 00:27:00.641
particularly the intensity

00:27:01.461 --> 00:27:04.584
of our services in cities outside London.

00:27:04.644 --> 00:27:06.365
The frequency of our

00:27:06.405 --> 00:27:09.387
networks is quite often a

00:27:09.468 --> 00:27:10.588
significant factor in

00:27:10.969 --> 00:27:12.589
holding back people from

00:27:13.131 --> 00:27:14.652
choosing Bust as an alternative.

00:27:15.172 --> 00:27:17.593
So those could be models where you're okay,

00:27:17.613 --> 00:27:18.493
you're not going down the

00:27:18.933 --> 00:27:20.095
municipalization route,

00:27:20.214 --> 00:27:22.135
but you could be into the

00:27:22.175 --> 00:27:23.236
fleet business where you're

00:27:23.256 --> 00:27:25.678
outside the vehicles to the operators.

00:27:26.698 --> 00:27:27.679
And that also then drives

00:27:27.719 --> 00:27:28.818
your quality point, isn't it?

00:27:30.299 --> 00:27:31.420
a consistent and standard

00:27:31.460 --> 00:27:33.601
offer across the web.

00:27:34.221 --> 00:27:34.980
Absolutely.

00:27:35.662 --> 00:27:36.761
But I'm sure we could

00:27:37.281 --> 00:27:39.142
continue this for quite some time yet,

00:27:39.242 --> 00:27:41.163
but I'm afraid half an hour

00:27:41.242 --> 00:27:43.443
is whizzing by and we're

00:27:43.943 --> 00:27:45.183
coming close to the end of

00:27:45.503 --> 00:27:46.984
our allotted time.

00:27:47.005 --> 00:27:49.904
So I just want to say a big

00:27:49.944 --> 00:27:51.726
thank you to Simon for

00:27:51.746 --> 00:27:53.125
being with us today and

00:27:53.546 --> 00:27:54.426
sharing your insights.

00:27:54.727 --> 00:27:57.326
And thanks also to everyone

00:27:57.386 --> 00:27:58.887
who's joined us this afternoon.

00:27:59.768 --> 00:28:02.429
um we have one further

00:28:02.608 --> 00:28:04.128
session planned for next

00:28:04.148 --> 00:28:06.670
week uh with our attention

00:28:06.890 --> 00:28:08.390
turning to rail so if you

00:28:08.410 --> 00:28:09.450
haven't signed up for that

00:28:09.609 --> 00:28:10.730
session you can visit our

00:28:10.769 --> 00:28:13.211
website or sign up via the

00:28:13.371 --> 00:28:14.671
email that will land in

00:28:14.730 --> 00:28:16.251
your inbox this afternoon

00:28:16.491 --> 00:28:19.112
for those who signed up um

00:28:19.551 --> 00:28:21.053
so with that it's uh

00:28:21.673 --> 00:28:22.992
goodbye from simon and

00:28:23.792 --> 00:28:25.233
goodbye from me and thank

00:28:25.273 --> 00:28:26.753
you everyone for joining us today