Transcript - Transport policy in 30 - Transport policy in 30:  the future for sustainable transport 00:00:14.484 --> 00:00:16.126 And good morning, everybody. 00:00:16.746 --> 00:00:17.628 Welcome to this, 00:00:17.807 --> 00:00:18.989 the fourth instalment of 00:00:19.088 --> 00:00:21.150 STEER's election reflection series, 00:00:21.210 --> 00:00:21.771 where we're bringing 00:00:21.811 --> 00:00:23.111 together industry experts 00:00:23.271 --> 00:00:24.713 for 30 minute conversations 00:00:24.914 --> 00:00:26.035 on the impact of Labour's 00:00:26.094 --> 00:00:27.295 agenda across cities, 00:00:27.475 --> 00:00:28.657 transport and infrastructure. 00:00:29.621 --> 00:00:30.742 My name is Lisa Martin. 00:00:30.922 --> 00:00:32.204 I'm a director here at STEER, 00:00:32.363 --> 00:00:33.204 focused largely on 00:00:33.243 --> 00:00:34.265 delivering sustainable 00:00:34.325 --> 00:00:35.985 mobility through the design 00:00:36.085 --> 00:00:37.267 and implementation of 00:00:37.347 --> 00:00:38.387 travel behaviour change 00:00:38.426 --> 00:00:39.847 strategies and programmes. 00:00:40.728 --> 00:00:41.569 Thank you for joining us 00:00:41.609 --> 00:00:42.789 today for this particular 00:00:42.810 --> 00:00:44.451 conversation about what a 00:00:44.490 --> 00:00:45.671 Labour government could 00:00:45.712 --> 00:00:46.892 mean in terms of transport 00:00:46.932 --> 00:00:48.173 policy across the UK. 00:00:48.853 --> 00:00:49.753 I'm very grateful to be 00:00:49.793 --> 00:00:52.475 joined by my friend and colleague, 00:00:52.536 --> 00:00:53.655 I should say, Tom Cohen, 00:00:53.896 --> 00:00:55.116 Reader of Transport Policy 00:00:55.197 --> 00:00:56.518 at the University of Westminster. 00:00:57.351 --> 00:00:58.912 Before I introduce Tom properly, 00:00:59.033 --> 00:01:00.173 just to note that you will 00:01:00.554 --> 00:01:02.113 find subtitled recordings 00:01:02.154 --> 00:01:03.215 of this session and our 00:01:03.234 --> 00:01:04.575 other sessions on our 00:01:04.596 --> 00:01:06.856 website at steergroup.com. 00:01:07.956 --> 00:01:08.578 As we're talking, 00:01:08.658 --> 00:01:09.677 you'll be able to use the 00:01:09.718 --> 00:01:10.918 comments section to share 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:12.218 your views and conversations, 00:01:12.980 --> 00:01:15.040 but given the sort of short 00:01:15.061 --> 00:01:16.141 format of these events, 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:17.262 we won't be able to respond 00:01:17.322 --> 00:01:18.001 to the comments or 00:01:18.042 --> 00:01:19.822 questions live during this session, 00:01:19.862 --> 00:01:20.644 but we will look at them 00:01:20.703 --> 00:01:22.444 afterwards and come back on 00:01:22.644 --> 00:01:23.745 anything we can do. 00:01:24.004 --> 00:01:24.144 So, 00:01:25.765 --> 00:01:27.546 back to introducing Tom. 00:01:28.006 --> 00:01:28.605 As I mentioned, 00:01:28.665 --> 00:01:29.725 Tom is based out of the 00:01:29.786 --> 00:01:30.887 University of Westminster, 00:01:31.287 --> 00:01:32.927 where he's also a member of 00:01:33.007 --> 00:01:34.567 its Active Travel Academy. 00:01:35.227 --> 00:01:36.168 Tom's main research 00:01:36.209 --> 00:01:37.429 interests are transport and 00:01:37.448 --> 00:01:38.448 mobility justice, 00:01:38.909 --> 00:01:40.489 the democratisation of 00:01:40.530 --> 00:01:42.311 transport planning and active travel. 00:01:43.031 --> 00:01:44.751 Before moving into the research sector, 00:01:44.891 --> 00:01:46.371 Tom spent a decade in 00:01:46.412 --> 00:01:48.772 transport consultancy for STEER, 00:01:48.893 --> 00:01:49.832 I'm very happy to say. 00:01:50.793 --> 00:01:51.853 So welcome, Tom. 00:01:51.873 --> 00:01:53.933 Thank you very much for having me. 00:01:54.795 --> 00:01:55.435 That's okay. 00:01:55.730 --> 00:01:56.790 For the next 30 minutes, 00:01:56.891 --> 00:01:57.852 we're going to talk about 00:01:57.891 --> 00:01:59.792 the future for sustainable transport. 00:01:59.932 --> 00:02:01.932 So let's get started. 00:02:02.412 --> 00:02:03.513 I've got some questions 00:02:03.593 --> 00:02:05.212 which I'm going to pose to 00:02:05.233 --> 00:02:07.293 Tom and I'll chip in where 00:02:07.373 --> 00:02:08.334 I've got thoughts too. 00:02:08.394 --> 00:02:09.834 So we'll start Tom with, 00:02:10.875 --> 00:02:11.995 given the sort of rhetoric 00:02:12.094 --> 00:02:13.914 around the war on the matrix, 00:02:13.974 --> 00:02:15.716 which has now largely gone away, 00:02:16.195 --> 00:02:17.135 what do you think we can 00:02:17.195 --> 00:02:18.496 expect now in terms of 00:02:18.536 --> 00:02:20.676 policy support for sustainable transport? 00:02:23.016 --> 00:02:25.258 It's a really nice question to start with. 00:02:26.275 --> 00:02:29.235 I suppose my immediate 00:02:29.276 --> 00:02:30.437 response is to question 00:02:30.477 --> 00:02:31.236 whether the war on the 00:02:31.276 --> 00:02:32.997 motorist has truly gone 00:02:33.057 --> 00:02:36.258 away in that obviously it 00:02:36.278 --> 00:02:37.179 was part of the culture 00:02:37.199 --> 00:02:38.159 wars it was something which 00:02:38.219 --> 00:02:39.180 the conservatives thought 00:02:39.219 --> 00:02:40.139 might win them some more 00:02:40.180 --> 00:02:41.040 votes in their own up to 00:02:41.061 --> 00:02:42.260 the election so that's why 00:02:42.300 --> 00:02:43.162 they went for it and 00:02:43.282 --> 00:02:44.181 presumably the Uxbridge 00:02:44.222 --> 00:02:45.181 by-election gave them 00:02:45.641 --> 00:02:48.443 additional confidence that 00:02:48.524 --> 00:02:49.544 doesn't mean that the 00:02:49.584 --> 00:02:50.243 incoming Labour 00:02:50.264 --> 00:02:51.465 administration is suddenly 00:02:51.504 --> 00:02:54.686 going to be harder on drivers I think 00:02:55.725 --> 00:02:57.586 it is a very brave political 00:02:57.646 --> 00:02:58.947 party that is willing to 00:02:59.007 --> 00:03:00.687 face down what is thought 00:03:00.747 --> 00:03:02.768 as the driver or the roads 00:03:02.807 --> 00:03:03.608 lobby perhaps more 00:03:03.647 --> 00:03:05.068 generally just because it's 00:03:05.088 --> 00:03:06.549 such a large part of the 00:03:06.688 --> 00:03:08.250 voting populace and it's 00:03:08.689 --> 00:03:10.509 associated with massive 00:03:10.550 --> 00:03:12.270 industries which are really 00:03:12.311 --> 00:03:14.251 important to the country so 00:03:14.431 --> 00:03:15.551 I suppose I'm equivocating 00:03:15.572 --> 00:03:17.151 a bit the war on the 00:03:17.171 --> 00:03:18.673 motorist in inverted commas 00:03:18.733 --> 00:03:19.953 may be over but I think 00:03:20.913 --> 00:03:22.694 what might be implied by 00:03:22.775 --> 00:03:25.876 that a true engagement with 00:03:26.036 --> 00:03:27.075 the promotion of 00:03:27.156 --> 00:03:28.396 alternatives to the car 00:03:29.137 --> 00:03:31.057 well we'll have to see I 00:03:31.098 --> 00:03:31.957 think that what we've had 00:03:32.018 --> 00:03:33.239 from the labor government 00:03:33.299 --> 00:03:34.878 so far is an interesting if 00:03:34.938 --> 00:03:36.199 mixed picture and we'll 00:03:36.300 --> 00:03:37.159 we'll have to see whether 00:03:37.219 --> 00:03:38.540 they whether they go full 00:03:38.580 --> 00:03:41.201 prescott if I can call it that because he 00:03:42.489 --> 00:03:43.028 famously, 00:03:43.269 --> 00:03:44.969 notoriously committed himself to 00:03:45.030 --> 00:03:46.811 reducing car trouble and it 00:03:46.871 --> 00:03:48.491 cost him dear in political terms. 00:03:48.550 --> 00:03:49.991 And I wonder whether what is 00:03:50.032 --> 00:03:51.211 clearly a very canny Labour 00:03:51.252 --> 00:03:52.473 administration will see the 00:03:52.532 --> 00:03:53.573 risks of doing the same. 00:03:55.533 --> 00:03:57.074 I think very fair points. 00:03:57.174 --> 00:03:58.775 And perhaps those of us 00:03:58.814 --> 00:03:59.735 who've just found the last 00:03:59.754 --> 00:04:01.216 year or so with that 00:04:01.256 --> 00:04:03.216 background of the war on 00:04:03.235 --> 00:04:04.836 the motorists and the need to stop that, 00:04:05.576 --> 00:04:06.818 maybe we're looking through 00:04:06.858 --> 00:04:07.777 rose tinted glasses a 00:04:07.818 --> 00:04:08.758 little bit too much and 00:04:08.798 --> 00:04:09.558 being a little bit too 00:04:09.618 --> 00:04:10.818 optimistic about the future. 00:04:11.211 --> 00:04:12.233 without having had the 00:04:12.272 --> 00:04:13.332 detail that really the 00:04:13.372 --> 00:04:14.174 evidence that's really 00:04:14.213 --> 00:04:16.154 going to back up that we're right. 00:04:16.875 --> 00:04:17.295 And of course, 00:04:17.634 --> 00:04:18.735 we have to cater for the car. 00:04:18.776 --> 00:04:20.257 The car is a really 00:04:20.297 --> 00:04:21.516 important mode of travel 00:04:21.637 --> 00:04:22.798 and enables many people to 00:04:22.838 --> 00:04:24.218 go places that they need to. 00:04:24.658 --> 00:04:26.379 But let's do that alongside 00:04:26.439 --> 00:04:28.261 looking at the right mode 00:04:28.401 --> 00:04:29.201 for the right journey. 00:04:30.822 --> 00:04:32.382 So I want to touch first on 00:04:32.403 --> 00:04:33.303 national policy and then 00:04:33.343 --> 00:04:34.305 think a little bit more 00:04:34.345 --> 00:04:35.526 about local policy. 00:04:35.545 --> 00:04:37.867 And if we start with national policy, 00:04:37.927 --> 00:04:40.048 the Labour manifesto and 00:04:40.470 --> 00:04:41.750 subsequent communications 00:04:42.110 --> 00:04:42.992 releases that they've been 00:04:43.031 --> 00:04:44.733 talking to have raised 00:04:44.793 --> 00:04:46.113 expectations of a new 00:04:46.173 --> 00:04:48.315 long-term strategy for transport, 00:04:48.997 --> 00:04:49.637 something I know the 00:04:49.677 --> 00:04:51.117 Transport Planning Society 00:04:51.197 --> 00:04:52.178 has also called for. 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:53.879 Do you support that 00:04:53.920 --> 00:04:56.101 long-term strategy for transport? 00:04:56.802 --> 00:04:58.303 And if so, how would you go about it? 00:05:00.151 --> 00:05:01.891 Depending on what kind of strategy we mean, 00:05:02.031 --> 00:05:02.591 definitely. 00:05:02.612 --> 00:05:04.052 And I suppose that's the 00:05:04.713 --> 00:05:06.112 starting point is to say, well, 00:05:06.132 --> 00:05:07.274 what do we mean by strategy? 00:05:07.334 --> 00:05:08.454 Because there are lots of 00:05:08.494 --> 00:05:09.553 different sorts of things 00:05:09.593 --> 00:05:10.514 that are called strategy 00:05:10.555 --> 00:05:11.194 and only some of them 00:05:11.235 --> 00:05:12.375 really deserve the title. 00:05:12.956 --> 00:05:15.677 So I would say one example is the RIS, 00:05:15.716 --> 00:05:16.896 the Road Investment Strategy, 00:05:16.937 --> 00:05:17.877 which is what I would call 00:05:17.896 --> 00:05:18.778 a strategy because it's a 00:05:18.877 --> 00:05:20.437 list of things that are going to happen. 00:05:21.579 --> 00:05:23.399 And many other documents, 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:24.079 particularly those that 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:24.839 come out of government, 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:26.259 probably don't deserve to 00:05:26.300 --> 00:05:27.761 be called strategy because they're more 00:05:28.490 --> 00:05:30.653 expressions of wishes and a 00:05:31.274 --> 00:05:32.875 degree of celebration of 00:05:32.935 --> 00:05:34.016 past achievements rather 00:05:34.036 --> 00:05:34.737 than anything that you 00:05:34.778 --> 00:05:36.240 could call a firm 00:05:36.279 --> 00:05:37.341 commitment for the future. 00:05:37.901 --> 00:05:39.543 So something which is a 00:05:40.124 --> 00:05:41.206 clear statement about the 00:05:41.266 --> 00:05:42.646 future is essential if 00:05:42.687 --> 00:05:43.749 we're going to call it a strategy. 00:05:43.788 --> 00:05:45.531 But then you're immediately 00:05:45.571 --> 00:05:47.033 into quite difficult territory. 00:05:48.029 --> 00:05:49.170 Because once you have 00:05:49.230 --> 00:05:49.911 written that you're going 00:05:49.951 --> 00:05:51.771 to do a certain thing by a certain date, 00:05:52.233 --> 00:05:53.273 you've set yourself up as a 00:05:53.312 --> 00:05:54.634 kind of hostage to fortune. 00:05:55.254 --> 00:05:56.134 And I'm old enough to 00:05:56.194 --> 00:05:57.415 remember the 10-year plan 00:05:57.435 --> 00:05:59.237 that was produced in, I think it was 2000, 00:05:59.237 --> 00:05:59.656 again, 00:06:00.038 --> 00:06:01.978 under the previous Labour government. 00:06:02.439 --> 00:06:03.620 And it ended up being a bit 00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:05.060 of a fiasco because it meant 00:06:05.661 --> 00:06:07.461 that people had to construct 00:06:07.502 --> 00:06:08.541 rather elaborate arguments 00:06:08.601 --> 00:06:09.843 about whether a certain 00:06:09.862 --> 00:06:11.062 number of tram lines meant 00:06:11.362 --> 00:06:11.882 a certain number of 00:06:11.963 --> 00:06:13.124 sections of tram lines as 00:06:13.184 --> 00:06:14.783 opposed to individual schemes, 00:06:15.184 --> 00:06:16.625 all because I think the 00:06:16.665 --> 00:06:17.464 government had somewhat 00:06:17.504 --> 00:06:18.725 tied itself in knots by 00:06:18.786 --> 00:06:20.786 making quite specific commitments. 00:06:21.367 --> 00:06:22.286 And there's another side to this, 00:06:22.326 --> 00:06:23.646 which is if we're talking 00:06:23.706 --> 00:06:25.608 about an atmosphere of devolution, 00:06:25.648 --> 00:06:27.209 which everyone is quite excited about, 00:06:28.088 --> 00:06:29.249 we probably need to limit 00:06:29.269 --> 00:06:30.069 the extent to which 00:06:30.689 --> 00:06:31.910 top-down government appears 00:06:31.970 --> 00:06:33.630 to be saying that it will be thus. 00:06:34.494 --> 00:06:35.696 And I suppose that leads me 00:06:35.735 --> 00:06:37.156 to think that to the extent 00:06:37.177 --> 00:06:38.939 that we call it a strategy or not, 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:40.641 what would be most welcome 00:06:40.682 --> 00:06:41.382 would be a series of 00:06:41.463 --> 00:06:42.884 principles governing how 00:06:43.185 --> 00:06:44.245 transport is going to work 00:06:44.665 --> 00:06:46.088 in the country from now on. 00:06:46.749 --> 00:06:48.370 And those might relate to, well, 00:06:48.411 --> 00:06:50.273 how do we actually do decarbonisation? 00:06:50.593 --> 00:06:51.555 What will be the principles 00:06:51.615 --> 00:06:52.855 by which we decide whether 00:06:52.896 --> 00:06:54.117 a scheme is a good thing or not? 00:06:54.685 --> 00:06:55.425 Is that a strategy? 00:06:55.545 --> 00:06:55.925 I don't know. 00:06:55.966 --> 00:06:56.826 We don't probably need to 00:06:56.867 --> 00:06:58.067 get into the philosophy of it, 00:06:58.108 --> 00:06:58.927 but that's probably the 00:06:58.968 --> 00:06:59.649 kind of thing I would 00:06:59.709 --> 00:07:01.209 welcome as opposed to some 00:07:01.550 --> 00:07:02.850 exhaustive list of all the 00:07:02.891 --> 00:07:03.591 things which are going to 00:07:03.632 --> 00:07:05.112 happen over the coming years. 00:07:07.153 --> 00:07:08.154 I think when I think about 00:07:08.696 --> 00:07:09.536 what it needs to do, 00:07:10.237 --> 00:07:11.877 it's about making that 00:07:11.958 --> 00:07:13.038 commitment that's certainly 00:07:13.098 --> 00:07:14.160 lacking at the moment at a 00:07:14.240 --> 00:07:15.521 national level and 00:07:15.560 --> 00:07:16.781 recognition of the need to 00:07:16.841 --> 00:07:18.903 reduce car miles travelled, 00:07:19.023 --> 00:07:19.824 distance travelled, 00:07:20.264 --> 00:07:21.944 if we're going to realise 00:07:22.846 --> 00:07:23.846 our carbon goals. 00:07:26.411 --> 00:07:27.692 And the other thing, actually, 00:07:27.992 --> 00:07:29.733 is sort of how we deal with 00:07:30.072 --> 00:07:31.733 inter-urban trips and trips 00:07:31.754 --> 00:07:33.334 that are passing through many local areas, 00:07:33.375 --> 00:07:34.254 which therefore can't be 00:07:34.855 --> 00:07:36.175 dealt with through that local policy. 00:07:36.615 --> 00:07:37.755 What's your views, though, 00:07:37.795 --> 00:07:39.276 on that national commitment 00:07:39.357 --> 00:07:42.257 to reducing car miles travelled? 00:07:42.298 --> 00:07:42.838 Do you think that's 00:07:42.877 --> 00:07:43.778 something we can expect 00:07:43.819 --> 00:07:45.418 from the new Labour government? 00:07:46.519 --> 00:07:47.259 Well, they need to. 00:07:47.939 --> 00:07:49.800 Whether they've got the guts 00:07:49.880 --> 00:07:50.940 to do it is another matter, 00:07:50.961 --> 00:07:51.920 and I suppose I refer back 00:07:51.961 --> 00:07:53.141 to my earlier comment about 00:07:53.783 --> 00:07:55.425 not scaring the horses and I 00:07:55.464 --> 00:07:56.685 think this is probably for 00:07:56.725 --> 00:07:58.007 me the biggest question 00:07:58.026 --> 00:07:59.168 mark associated what I've 00:07:59.187 --> 00:08:01.350 seen so far from labor in 00:08:01.389 --> 00:08:03.211 that they remain committed 00:08:03.271 --> 00:08:05.213 it seems to net zero they 00:08:05.273 --> 00:08:07.855 have a near fixation on 00:08:07.995 --> 00:08:11.218 economic growth and I would 00:08:11.237 --> 00:08:12.718 have to describe myself as 00:08:12.738 --> 00:08:13.680 someone who is skeptical 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:14.560 about green growth 00:08:15.310 --> 00:08:15.829 Therefore, 00:08:16.129 --> 00:08:17.771 I find a very serious tension 00:08:17.831 --> 00:08:19.512 between the potential 00:08:19.552 --> 00:08:20.692 achievement of net zero and 00:08:20.711 --> 00:08:21.552 this idea that it's going 00:08:21.572 --> 00:08:22.913 to be done at the same time 00:08:23.413 --> 00:08:25.954 as we are growing GDP in a big way, 00:08:26.754 --> 00:08:27.675 which is not to say that 00:08:27.754 --> 00:08:29.536 I'm disputing the arguments 00:08:29.615 --> 00:08:30.615 for growing GDP, 00:08:30.675 --> 00:08:31.637 though I would if we were 00:08:31.656 --> 00:08:32.876 having a different conversation. 00:08:33.518 --> 00:08:35.558 It's simply that if you do grow GDP, 00:08:35.619 --> 00:08:36.818 you can generally expect 00:08:37.479 --> 00:08:38.759 car miles to increase 00:08:38.940 --> 00:08:39.860 because that's a very 00:08:39.899 --> 00:08:41.321 well-established relationship. 00:08:42.041 --> 00:08:43.682 It's not axiomatic, but it is 00:08:44.215 --> 00:08:45.677 well established, it's got a long history. 00:08:46.677 --> 00:08:49.279 So are we going to just electrify? 00:08:49.541 --> 00:08:49.740 Well, 00:08:50.201 --> 00:08:51.643 definitely that won't be enough and 00:08:51.682 --> 00:08:52.803 it brings its own problems. 00:08:53.485 --> 00:08:54.365 We do, as you say, 00:08:54.625 --> 00:08:56.067 really need to reduce the 00:08:56.126 --> 00:08:58.168 amount of car-based movement. 00:08:59.129 --> 00:09:00.631 And this just brings us up 00:09:00.692 --> 00:09:02.274 against that same problem of 00:09:03.777 --> 00:09:04.918 probably telling people that 00:09:04.937 --> 00:09:06.299 they need to drive less and 00:09:06.340 --> 00:09:07.701 that's something which has 00:09:07.780 --> 00:09:09.082 rarely been a palatable 00:09:09.143 --> 00:09:10.543 message for anyone in 00:09:10.604 --> 00:09:12.625 government to convey and as 00:09:12.645 --> 00:09:15.048 we've seen from the fair 00:09:15.089 --> 00:09:16.009 amount of unpleasantness 00:09:16.309 --> 00:09:17.331 associated with things such 00:09:17.390 --> 00:09:17.991 as low traffic 00:09:18.011 --> 00:09:19.013 neighborhoods and even 00:09:19.033 --> 00:09:21.936 15-minute cities the 00:09:23.552 --> 00:09:25.394 The populace seems unready 00:09:25.815 --> 00:09:28.635 to swallow that as a proposition. 00:09:29.197 --> 00:09:30.136 It's all going to have to be 00:09:30.236 --> 00:09:31.298 couched in terms of, well, 00:09:31.317 --> 00:09:32.217 we're going to continue to 00:09:32.258 --> 00:09:33.418 make the alternatives much 00:09:33.499 --> 00:09:34.240 more attractive. 00:09:34.659 --> 00:09:35.520 We're going to make it easy 00:09:35.561 --> 00:09:36.461 to walk and cycle. 00:09:36.941 --> 00:09:37.981 And obviously we've seen 00:09:38.022 --> 00:09:40.202 things from Labour about buses and trains, 00:09:40.263 --> 00:09:41.964 which are clearly intended 00:09:42.065 --> 00:09:43.504 to make those better and 00:09:43.686 --> 00:09:45.046 more attractive forms of transport. 00:09:45.267 --> 00:09:46.626 So the idea is it's all 00:09:46.667 --> 00:09:48.729 going to be carrots and we 00:09:48.749 --> 00:09:49.828 shouldn't need any sticks. 00:09:50.309 --> 00:09:50.889 Sticks are 00:09:52.309 --> 00:09:53.071 in political terms, 00:09:53.130 --> 00:09:54.811 exceptionally difficult to deliver. 00:09:54.831 --> 00:09:56.831 Yeah. 00:09:57.232 --> 00:09:59.793 You said something there to quote, 00:09:59.854 --> 00:10:01.595 telling people they need to 00:10:01.634 --> 00:10:02.315 travel differently. 00:10:02.355 --> 00:10:03.816 And I think that's what we 00:10:03.855 --> 00:10:05.177 need to be very careful to avoid. 00:10:05.236 --> 00:10:05.897 And something actually I 00:10:05.917 --> 00:10:06.918 want to come back to later 00:10:06.937 --> 00:10:08.759 in this conversation is it's, 00:10:09.499 --> 00:10:10.099 I think there is a 00:10:10.158 --> 00:10:11.100 willingness amongst the 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:14.500 population to do their bit 00:10:14.721 --> 00:10:16.121 and reduce their carbon 00:10:16.361 --> 00:10:17.383 consumption or individual 00:10:17.423 --> 00:10:18.703 carbon consumption when we can. 00:10:18.744 --> 00:10:19.803 I think we see examples of 00:10:19.864 --> 00:10:21.365 that across lots of different sectors. 00:10:21.969 --> 00:10:22.048 And, 00:10:22.269 --> 00:10:23.970 and I think there is an opportunity to 00:10:24.070 --> 00:10:27.350 bring the population much more into, 00:10:27.890 --> 00:10:29.211 to making choices and 00:10:29.270 --> 00:10:30.792 designing choices and 00:10:30.851 --> 00:10:31.751 designing transport 00:10:31.772 --> 00:10:32.732 projects and programs that 00:10:32.793 --> 00:10:34.852 perhaps work for them rather than that, 00:10:35.052 --> 00:10:35.774 that top down. 00:10:35.833 --> 00:10:37.433 So perhaps that takes us back to that, 00:10:38.134 --> 00:10:39.615 that national strategy and how, 00:10:39.794 --> 00:10:41.075 how you develop it and how 00:10:41.115 --> 00:10:42.855 you bring people with you in, 00:10:44.155 --> 00:10:45.576 in setting that agenda. 00:10:46.057 --> 00:10:46.297 Okay. 00:10:47.123 --> 00:10:47.923 Well, if I may, 00:10:47.943 --> 00:10:49.125 you would be disappointed 00:10:49.164 --> 00:10:51.167 if I didn't talk about road 00:10:51.206 --> 00:10:53.308 pricing because no 00:10:53.389 --> 00:10:54.450 self-respecting transport 00:10:54.490 --> 00:10:55.551 academic can get through 00:10:55.591 --> 00:10:57.111 half an hour without talking about it. 00:10:57.852 --> 00:10:59.855 And it's a particularly 00:10:59.955 --> 00:11:01.855 poignant issue because we 00:11:01.917 --> 00:11:03.577 know that the Treasury is 00:11:03.618 --> 00:11:05.058 going to be facing an ever 00:11:05.099 --> 00:11:06.740 larger gap in its finances 00:11:07.400 --> 00:11:09.062 as the duty on fuel 00:11:09.383 --> 00:11:11.865 diminishes in terms of revenue. 00:11:14.741 --> 00:11:16.442 whether or not they like it 00:11:16.504 --> 00:11:17.224 I think that Labour 00:11:17.264 --> 00:11:17.965 government is going to be 00:11:18.024 --> 00:11:19.505 faced with the need to find 00:11:19.566 --> 00:11:20.626 another way of generating 00:11:20.687 --> 00:11:21.927 income from people's travel 00:11:21.967 --> 00:11:23.609 by car and obviously there 00:11:23.668 --> 00:11:24.769 is the argument that you 00:11:24.809 --> 00:11:26.211 could do that at the same 00:11:26.250 --> 00:11:27.451 time as tackling some of 00:11:27.511 --> 00:11:29.413 the worst externalities 00:11:29.453 --> 00:11:30.554 associated with car travel. 00:11:32.235 --> 00:11:34.017 And that again I suppose is 00:11:34.057 --> 00:11:35.398 a role for that national 00:11:35.437 --> 00:11:36.798 transport strategy if it's 00:11:36.879 --> 00:11:38.441 set out the principles as 00:11:38.461 --> 00:11:39.481 you talk to you'd rather 00:11:39.522 --> 00:11:40.322 see a strategy which 00:11:40.361 --> 00:11:41.322 perhaps set out some 00:11:41.363 --> 00:11:43.804 principles that introducing road pricing 00:11:44.403 --> 00:11:47.205 will be a necessity and it 00:11:47.245 --> 00:11:48.807 would like local 00:11:48.846 --> 00:11:50.508 authorities to consider 00:11:50.528 --> 00:11:51.408 those plans and bring them 00:11:51.428 --> 00:11:52.789 forward in the most appropriate way. 00:11:54.576 --> 00:11:56.057 yeah again we've got some 00:11:56.097 --> 00:11:57.038 history to draw on here 00:11:57.078 --> 00:11:58.860 which is that again I think 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:00.941 it was labor that decided 00:12:00.980 --> 00:12:02.221 to pull back from doing it 00:12:02.261 --> 00:12:03.283 at a national level and 00:12:03.363 --> 00:12:05.945 invited individual urban 00:12:06.004 --> 00:12:07.284 areas to come up with their 00:12:07.326 --> 00:12:08.426 own proposals and there was 00:12:08.485 --> 00:12:10.427 a sweetener there so they 00:12:10.467 --> 00:12:11.628 would get money to pay for 00:12:12.009 --> 00:12:13.649 improvements in exchange 00:12:14.210 --> 00:12:15.591 but as a result we saw 00:12:15.870 --> 00:12:16.711 things such as the 00:12:16.971 --> 00:12:19.913 manchester road pricing referendum so 00:12:20.625 --> 00:12:21.767 There's no guarantee that 00:12:21.826 --> 00:12:22.748 that kind of thing can be 00:12:22.768 --> 00:12:23.609 effectively devolved. 00:12:23.710 --> 00:12:25.350 That sort of thing, I suspect, 00:12:25.812 --> 00:12:27.354 has to be done at the national level, 00:12:27.933 --> 00:12:29.696 even if its implementation 00:12:29.736 --> 00:12:31.158 is going to be varying very 00:12:31.177 --> 00:12:32.500 dramatically from place to place, 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:35.163 given that congestion is hardly the same. 00:12:35.783 --> 00:12:35.943 Yeah. 00:12:36.764 --> 00:12:36.945 Okay. 00:12:37.678 --> 00:12:39.760 Let's move on then to local 00:12:39.801 --> 00:12:41.962 policy and we as a 00:12:41.982 --> 00:12:42.582 profession have been 00:12:42.623 --> 00:12:44.183 waiting for the new local 00:12:44.344 --> 00:12:45.465 transport planning guidance 00:12:45.806 --> 00:12:47.226 for what I think is now years. 00:12:47.447 --> 00:12:50.448 It's certainly a long time, 00:12:50.549 --> 00:12:52.591 over a year rather than the months. 00:12:53.152 --> 00:12:55.352 Do you think that is still important? 00:12:55.413 --> 00:12:56.474 Do we still need that new 00:12:56.494 --> 00:12:57.274 guidance to come out? 00:12:58.884 --> 00:12:59.686 You're saying that just made 00:12:59.706 --> 00:13:01.267 me think of someone waiting 00:13:01.287 --> 00:13:02.067 at a bus stop and then 00:13:02.126 --> 00:13:03.827 someone else comes along and they say, oh, 00:13:03.847 --> 00:13:04.609 what are you waiting for? 00:13:05.188 --> 00:13:05.428 Oh, well, 00:13:05.448 --> 00:13:06.730 I'm waiting for the new Manifold Street. 00:13:07.049 --> 00:13:07.389 Oh, right. 00:13:07.431 --> 00:13:07.650 Yeah. 00:13:07.971 --> 00:13:08.051 Oh, 00:13:08.091 --> 00:13:09.611 and I'm waiting for them to make a 00:13:09.652 --> 00:13:10.732 decision on pavement parking. 00:13:11.013 --> 00:13:11.432 What about you? 00:13:11.753 --> 00:13:12.693 Oh, the LTP guidance. 00:13:13.875 --> 00:13:15.054 Well, we'll be able to hear a while, 00:13:15.115 --> 00:13:15.576 I suspect. 00:13:16.996 --> 00:13:18.658 OK, so on LTPs, 00:13:18.798 --> 00:13:19.899 I think everyone looks back 00:13:19.938 --> 00:13:20.938 on them quite fondly 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:22.200 because they were 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:23.380 associated with a time of 00:13:23.480 --> 00:13:25.261 greater certainty about 00:13:25.381 --> 00:13:27.082 funding and perhaps just a 00:13:27.123 --> 00:13:28.203 slightly less austere 00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:30.080 situation for local 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:31.880 government whether they 00:13:31.900 --> 00:13:33.360 were the panacea I think is 00:13:33.500 --> 00:13:35.782 less clear and there's not 00:13:35.822 --> 00:13:36.662 been anything stopping 00:13:36.701 --> 00:13:37.741 people from continuing to 00:13:37.782 --> 00:13:39.623 produce them but very few 00:13:39.702 --> 00:13:40.863 have and that suggests that 00:13:41.442 --> 00:13:42.524 there isn't a huge appetite 00:13:42.563 --> 00:13:43.364 in local government to 00:13:43.403 --> 00:13:44.504 write long documents just 00:13:44.543 --> 00:13:45.964 for the sake of it I think 00:13:45.984 --> 00:13:46.664 we need to remember that 00:13:46.745 --> 00:13:48.205 ltps were a means to an end 00:13:48.325 --> 00:13:50.164 they helped local 00:13:50.225 --> 00:13:51.645 authorities to negotiate 00:13:51.686 --> 00:13:53.426 with government over the 00:13:53.446 --> 00:13:54.167 money that they would then 00:13:54.206 --> 00:13:55.826 be able to spend on their interventions 00:13:56.519 --> 00:13:58.461 And I suspect that if that 00:13:58.522 --> 00:14:02.043 were still the way in which LTPs worked, 00:14:02.124 --> 00:14:03.764 then we would be very glad 00:14:03.806 --> 00:14:04.505 of their return. 00:14:05.346 --> 00:14:06.326 But if I may, 00:14:06.807 --> 00:14:07.768 I feel I have to draw 00:14:07.827 --> 00:14:10.350 attention to the major 00:14:10.370 --> 00:14:11.912 commitments in terms of house building. 00:14:13.011 --> 00:14:15.214 And it's a really old chestnut, 00:14:15.313 --> 00:14:16.434 but the lack of integration 00:14:16.455 --> 00:14:17.495 between transport and land 00:14:17.576 --> 00:14:18.756 use planning continues to 00:14:18.797 --> 00:14:21.118 be a serious impediment in this country. 00:14:22.380 --> 00:14:23.881 If we are in a position to 00:14:23.922 --> 00:14:24.922 bring out new guidance, 00:14:25.442 --> 00:14:27.802 how about we try to bridge 00:14:27.863 --> 00:14:30.583 that gap and insist that 00:14:31.524 --> 00:14:32.644 there is a coherence 00:14:32.705 --> 00:14:33.625 between what local 00:14:33.644 --> 00:14:34.625 authorities say about their 00:14:34.645 --> 00:14:35.905 transport and the housing 00:14:35.946 --> 00:14:36.606 which they know they're 00:14:36.626 --> 00:14:37.427 going to have to build, 00:14:37.927 --> 00:14:38.908 so that we're no longer 00:14:39.727 --> 00:14:40.748 allowing these things to 00:14:41.028 --> 00:14:42.349 operate separately from each other, 00:14:42.369 --> 00:14:45.169 which is always such a misstep. 00:14:47.018 --> 00:14:48.339 It seems an obvious thing to do, 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:48.820 doesn't it? 00:14:49.100 --> 00:14:50.100 So many of these things seem 00:14:50.181 --> 00:14:50.980 obvious things to do. 00:14:51.140 --> 00:14:52.623 What's going to be the 00:14:52.663 --> 00:14:54.504 barrier to letting that happen? 00:14:55.284 --> 00:14:56.365 Bringing the right 00:14:56.404 --> 00:14:57.186 government departments 00:14:57.245 --> 00:14:59.368 together to make progress 00:14:59.488 --> 00:15:00.908 and quickly enough, I suppose. 00:15:02.607 --> 00:15:02.807 Gosh, 00:15:02.847 --> 00:15:04.308 I keep talking about history because 00:15:04.688 --> 00:15:05.929 I remember what was 00:15:06.291 --> 00:15:07.110 laughingly called the 00:15:07.150 --> 00:15:08.131 Department for Everything 00:15:08.711 --> 00:15:11.494 in the early days of the Blair government, 00:15:11.934 --> 00:15:14.235 DETR, then subsequently DTLR, 00:15:14.635 --> 00:15:16.317 as various concatenations 00:15:16.577 --> 00:15:18.778 of transport and planning were attempted. 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:20.880 And the fact that they 00:15:20.921 --> 00:15:21.922 eventually split up 00:15:21.981 --> 00:15:23.042 suggests that people 00:15:23.121 --> 00:15:24.744 concluded it just wasn't workable, 00:15:24.764 --> 00:15:26.144 which is a terrible shame, isn't it? 00:15:26.825 --> 00:15:29.746 Maybe the answer does lie at 00:15:29.826 --> 00:15:32.208 the more localized level where 00:15:32.886 --> 00:15:34.768 there are fewer barriers to 00:15:35.349 --> 00:15:36.490 truly integrated planning 00:15:36.529 --> 00:15:37.691 that might be fanciful but 00:15:37.730 --> 00:15:38.691 I'd love to think that that 00:15:38.750 --> 00:15:41.253 is the case so you know let 00:15:41.493 --> 00:15:42.433 central government do what 00:15:42.514 --> 00:15:44.475 it must perhaps we can 00:15:44.515 --> 00:15:46.736 persuade the powers that be 00:15:46.817 --> 00:15:48.418 to create a kind of unified 00:15:48.498 --> 00:15:49.379 guidance of the sort we 00:15:49.399 --> 00:15:51.019 were just discussing and 00:15:51.059 --> 00:15:52.620 then the individual 00:15:52.682 --> 00:15:53.682 authorities and they come 00:15:53.721 --> 00:15:54.802 in so many different forms 00:15:55.023 --> 00:15:55.903 in england at least 00:15:56.403 --> 00:15:57.124 can figure out for 00:15:57.144 --> 00:15:58.104 themselves how best to 00:15:58.144 --> 00:15:59.905 convert that guidance into 00:16:00.385 --> 00:16:00.926 what I would call 00:16:00.966 --> 00:16:02.006 integrated land use and 00:16:02.027 --> 00:16:02.768 transport planning. 00:16:04.629 --> 00:16:07.471 I think it's extremely easy for me to say, 00:16:07.591 --> 00:16:08.552 and it's a very different 00:16:08.572 --> 00:16:09.952 matter for individual 00:16:10.013 --> 00:16:11.374 authorities to deliver it, 00:16:11.413 --> 00:16:13.735 but I really hope that this 00:16:13.774 --> 00:16:14.956 opportunity will be taken 00:16:14.995 --> 00:16:15.836 and we won't simply 00:16:15.917 --> 00:16:18.077 continue down the same old track of, oh, 00:16:18.118 --> 00:16:19.558 well, we've got this housing, 00:16:19.899 --> 00:16:21.019 which we've got to put there, 00:16:21.520 --> 00:16:22.902 and elsewhere in the building, 00:16:22.961 --> 00:16:24.062 perhaps somewhere down the road, 00:16:24.102 --> 00:16:24.903 we've got colleagues who 00:16:24.923 --> 00:16:25.984 are writing a transport plan. 00:16:26.769 --> 00:16:28.850 Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:16:29.030 --> 00:16:29.831 But yeah, 00:16:30.111 --> 00:16:32.393 maybe I'm usually an optimistic soul, Tom, 00:16:32.493 --> 00:16:32.974 as you know, 00:16:33.094 --> 00:16:35.394 but I do fear this has been 00:16:35.596 --> 00:16:36.436 something that has been 00:16:36.495 --> 00:16:38.177 called upon for so long and 00:16:38.238 --> 00:16:41.379 is such an obvious fix to make. 00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:43.562 I do think we're heading in 00:16:43.581 --> 00:16:44.121 that direction. 00:16:44.142 --> 00:16:45.602 There's definitely conversations going on, 00:16:45.643 --> 00:16:45.923 aren't there, 00:16:46.524 --> 00:16:47.364 about bringing these two 00:16:47.384 --> 00:16:48.304 things closer together. 00:16:48.365 --> 00:16:51.366 But we need to see movement quickly. 00:16:51.407 --> 00:16:52.347 And I think for the local 00:16:52.388 --> 00:16:53.528 authorities that have been 00:16:54.197 --> 00:16:56.519 reluctant to update their 00:16:56.538 --> 00:16:57.519 local transport plans 00:16:57.879 --> 00:16:59.961 whilst waiting for the 00:17:00.142 --> 00:17:01.282 guidance that was to come 00:17:01.302 --> 00:17:02.982 you know they're missing 00:17:03.143 --> 00:17:04.144 the opportunity to really 00:17:04.183 --> 00:17:05.505 have that strong policy 00:17:05.565 --> 00:17:06.805 framework behind them to 00:17:06.845 --> 00:17:08.906 perhaps bring bring forward 00:17:08.967 --> 00:17:10.186 some of the the plans and 00:17:10.227 --> 00:17:11.127 programs that they need to 00:17:11.167 --> 00:17:14.470 do so today so we we do 00:17:14.529 --> 00:17:15.931 need a lever to encourage 00:17:15.971 --> 00:17:16.851 those authorities I think 00:17:16.871 --> 00:17:17.771 to move quickly now 00:17:18.205 --> 00:17:19.307 in developing their plans. 00:17:19.708 --> 00:17:21.390 And I fear if we do 00:17:21.430 --> 00:17:22.330 something very difficult 00:17:22.411 --> 00:17:23.711 and we wait a long time for it, 00:17:25.114 --> 00:17:26.194 we also go backwards a 00:17:26.214 --> 00:17:27.096 little bit while we wait. 00:17:28.116 --> 00:17:29.038 I think you're quite right. 00:17:29.218 --> 00:17:30.519 And you should never trust 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.342 an academic to set anyone's policy. 00:17:33.202 --> 00:17:33.782 Having said that, 00:17:34.163 --> 00:17:35.085 I have been encouraged by 00:17:35.125 --> 00:17:36.445 what I've heard so far from 00:17:36.926 --> 00:17:37.968 the ministers in question. 00:17:38.698 --> 00:17:40.018 so I suppose it's reasonable 00:17:40.038 --> 00:17:41.179 to be hopeful they are 00:17:41.219 --> 00:17:43.058 moving quickly yeah and 00:17:43.098 --> 00:17:46.140 maybe not as as we would 00:17:46.460 --> 00:17:47.881 necessarily desire but 00:17:47.961 --> 00:17:48.800 there's a lot that's good 00:17:48.861 --> 00:17:49.820 about what we've seen so 00:17:49.861 --> 00:17:51.662 far so I guess I'm going to 00:17:51.701 --> 00:17:52.721 be optimistic if you're 00:17:52.741 --> 00:17:54.083 having an optimism deficit 00:17:54.123 --> 00:17:57.804 I'll fill in for you okay 00:17:57.844 --> 00:17:58.723 let's move on to another 00:17:58.743 --> 00:18:00.164 question so we've touched 00:18:00.204 --> 00:18:01.525 on this already but we know 00:18:01.684 --> 00:18:02.825 that we need to reduce 00:18:02.924 --> 00:18:04.746 overall distance traveled by cars 00:18:05.741 --> 00:18:06.522 If we're going to meet our 00:18:06.563 --> 00:18:07.262 carbon commitments, 00:18:07.623 --> 00:18:09.284 we cannot rely only on the 00:18:09.344 --> 00:18:10.744 transition to electric vehicles, 00:18:10.964 --> 00:18:12.885 although that is important alongside. 00:18:13.406 --> 00:18:15.988 So given our experience in 00:18:16.008 --> 00:18:17.028 delivering a reduction in 00:18:17.068 --> 00:18:18.189 car miles driven through 00:18:18.288 --> 00:18:19.289 nudging behaviours, 00:18:20.171 --> 00:18:21.351 what advice could we give 00:18:21.451 --> 00:18:22.852 to new ministers on how to 00:18:22.892 --> 00:18:23.972 bring that change forward? 00:18:25.133 --> 00:18:25.413 Yeah, well, 00:18:25.433 --> 00:18:26.493 I suppose this does take us 00:18:26.534 --> 00:18:28.015 back to the question of 00:18:28.075 --> 00:18:29.455 road pricing mentioned earlier. 00:18:31.384 --> 00:18:32.285 It seems to me that what 00:18:32.305 --> 00:18:33.786 we've seen so far is 00:18:34.086 --> 00:18:36.506 indicative of the natural 00:18:36.546 --> 00:18:37.606 tendency to look at the big 00:18:37.646 --> 00:18:38.666 ticket stuff first. 00:18:38.747 --> 00:18:39.926 So we've heard about buses 00:18:39.946 --> 00:18:40.988 and we've heard about rail. 00:18:41.667 --> 00:18:42.607 And naturally, 00:18:42.667 --> 00:18:43.567 the government is seeing 00:18:43.627 --> 00:18:45.648 those two as being crucial 00:18:45.929 --> 00:18:47.648 parts of the picture. 00:18:48.130 --> 00:18:48.690 And I'm sure they're 00:18:48.710 --> 00:18:49.730 absolutely right about that. 00:18:50.069 --> 00:18:50.970 There hasn't been much about 00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:51.770 active travel yet. 00:18:51.830 --> 00:18:53.330 So people in my community 00:18:53.351 --> 00:18:54.671 might be feeling a little bit unloved, 00:18:54.730 --> 00:18:55.971 but we're confident that 00:18:56.011 --> 00:18:56.652 that will change. 00:18:58.439 --> 00:18:59.619 so it comes back to this 00:18:59.660 --> 00:19:00.560 business of carrots and 00:19:00.621 --> 00:19:03.243 sticks we can improve the 00:19:03.723 --> 00:19:04.924 public transport offer for 00:19:04.964 --> 00:19:06.205 all we're worth we can make 00:19:06.286 --> 00:19:08.828 it more efficient more 00:19:08.868 --> 00:19:10.931 reliable we might even make 00:19:10.971 --> 00:19:12.271 it cheaper if we think we 00:19:12.311 --> 00:19:13.373 can find the money to do 00:19:13.432 --> 00:19:15.094 that though money continues 00:19:15.134 --> 00:19:16.335 to be a very significant 00:19:16.455 --> 00:19:19.659 concern I think will that be enough 00:19:20.470 --> 00:19:22.090 well I have my doubts and I 00:19:22.151 --> 00:19:23.192 think you and I have the 00:19:23.231 --> 00:19:24.272 shared experience that 00:19:25.292 --> 00:19:26.114 there are reasons why 00:19:26.153 --> 00:19:27.094 people continue to drive 00:19:27.134 --> 00:19:28.736 their cars and the 00:19:29.455 --> 00:19:30.876 suggestion that they're on 00:19:30.896 --> 00:19:32.018 the brink of switching to 00:19:32.057 --> 00:19:34.318 an alternative if only some 00:19:35.059 --> 00:19:36.560 marginal change takes place 00:19:36.961 --> 00:19:37.882 has always seemed to me to 00:19:37.942 --> 00:19:40.583 be unrealistic there are as 00:19:40.623 --> 00:19:41.824 you have said lots of 00:19:41.884 --> 00:19:44.105 reasons why cars are widely 00:19:44.246 --> 00:19:45.906 used they're extremely useful 00:19:46.784 --> 00:19:47.964 And that's before we get 00:19:48.005 --> 00:19:49.405 into the business of how we 00:19:49.465 --> 00:19:51.507 have a car culture and we 00:19:51.547 --> 00:19:54.068 have designed our country 00:19:54.128 --> 00:19:55.269 to cater to the car. 00:19:56.490 --> 00:19:58.551 So if you just leave that to one side, 00:19:58.832 --> 00:20:00.113 the simple fact that people 00:20:00.173 --> 00:20:02.714 can climb into this device 00:20:03.035 --> 00:20:05.115 and be taken directly to 00:20:05.135 --> 00:20:06.757 their destination without stopping, 00:20:07.238 --> 00:20:08.519 without having to make any 00:20:08.699 --> 00:20:10.220 intermediate or sorry, 00:20:10.279 --> 00:20:12.060 without having to take any detours. 00:20:12.661 --> 00:20:13.602 I speak as someone who took 00:20:13.642 --> 00:20:14.583 a lot of public transport 00:20:14.623 --> 00:20:15.563 yesterday and it's weighing 00:20:15.623 --> 00:20:16.144 heavily on me. 00:20:17.028 --> 00:20:20.171 So the car is going to 00:20:20.211 --> 00:20:22.412 continue to be this 00:20:22.471 --> 00:20:24.432 convenient unless we make it less so. 00:20:26.194 --> 00:20:27.895 And that's a really difficult truth. 00:20:29.355 --> 00:20:29.636 It is. 00:20:29.656 --> 00:20:31.837 And I think we have to 00:20:31.897 --> 00:20:33.278 recognise the importance of that car, 00:20:33.298 --> 00:20:34.019 but we also have to 00:20:34.078 --> 00:20:37.000 recognise it has its inconveniences too. 00:20:37.661 --> 00:20:38.481 In many cases, 00:20:38.741 --> 00:20:40.583 people would value the time. 00:20:40.643 --> 00:20:41.644 And actually the time we 00:20:41.683 --> 00:20:42.743 spend on our phones these 00:20:42.784 --> 00:20:43.704 days doing so many 00:20:43.744 --> 00:20:45.405 different things that can easily be done 00:20:45.836 --> 00:20:47.377 on public transport, for example, 00:20:47.438 --> 00:20:49.799 is a reason why traveling 00:20:49.819 --> 00:20:50.621 by another mode is 00:20:50.661 --> 00:20:52.522 attractive if that other mode is there. 00:20:53.064 --> 00:20:55.006 But I wonder if we're really 00:20:55.046 --> 00:20:55.707 thinking enough, 00:20:56.326 --> 00:20:57.969 and the work we've done before, Tom, 00:20:58.028 --> 00:21:00.491 that we know car use is a habit. 00:21:00.592 --> 00:21:01.772 We've spoken to enough 00:21:01.873 --> 00:21:03.934 people that we understand 00:21:04.415 --> 00:21:05.317 that regular people, 00:21:05.537 --> 00:21:06.498 not transport planners, 00:21:06.951 --> 00:21:08.272 Really go about their day to 00:21:08.313 --> 00:21:09.232 day business and they're 00:21:09.292 --> 00:21:10.614 not giving much thought to 00:21:10.673 --> 00:21:11.634 what mode of transport 00:21:11.673 --> 00:21:12.433 they're traveling on. 00:21:12.753 --> 00:21:13.615 they're giving thought to 00:21:13.855 --> 00:21:14.855 where they need to get to 00:21:14.914 --> 00:21:16.316 and what time they need to get there. 00:21:16.715 --> 00:21:17.896 And they are typically using 00:21:17.997 --> 00:21:18.997 the convenient mode of 00:21:19.037 --> 00:21:20.096 transport that they always 00:21:20.136 --> 00:21:21.097 have done because they've 00:21:21.157 --> 00:21:22.798 not really gone into 00:21:22.858 --> 00:21:24.398 looking at what the 00:21:24.439 --> 00:21:26.119 alternatives are for them. 00:21:27.761 --> 00:21:28.622 And I think if we could 00:21:28.662 --> 00:21:29.803 become a little bit more 00:21:29.903 --> 00:21:31.464 people-centric and think 00:21:31.525 --> 00:21:33.286 about how we engage with 00:21:33.306 --> 00:21:34.787 people about the places 00:21:34.866 --> 00:21:35.627 they need to go and the 00:21:35.667 --> 00:21:36.848 activities they need to go, 00:21:36.949 --> 00:21:38.088 rather than being so 00:21:38.269 --> 00:21:40.191 mode-driven about making 00:21:40.250 --> 00:21:41.592 improvements to modes, 00:21:42.373 --> 00:21:44.814 out being more people-centric. 00:21:45.535 --> 00:21:46.496 I think that's the real 00:21:46.536 --> 00:21:47.516 opportunity for me. 00:21:49.097 --> 00:21:50.378 Yes, I think I agree with you. 00:21:51.275 --> 00:21:52.256 yeah the behavioral science 00:21:52.276 --> 00:21:53.636 would suggest the same so 00:21:54.178 --> 00:21:55.358 improve the alternatives 00:21:55.558 --> 00:21:56.779 and then invite people to 00:21:56.859 --> 00:21:58.161 reassess their choices 00:21:58.622 --> 00:21:59.201 you're right they're 00:21:59.221 --> 00:22:00.884 probably inured to driving 00:22:00.903 --> 00:22:02.105 the car because they do so 00:22:02.545 --> 00:22:03.625 unthinkingly and this is 00:22:03.665 --> 00:22:04.847 how most of us do most of 00:22:04.867 --> 00:22:07.730 the things we do so once 00:22:07.769 --> 00:22:08.830 you have made significant 00:22:08.891 --> 00:22:09.491 improvements to the 00:22:09.511 --> 00:22:10.833 alternatives and perhaps 00:22:10.873 --> 00:22:12.734 dare I say it somewhat 00:22:14.348 --> 00:22:16.790 removed some of the convenience of the car, 00:22:17.230 --> 00:22:18.711 then the balance should 00:22:18.731 --> 00:22:20.212 have shifted and that 00:22:20.272 --> 00:22:21.614 people focused approach to 00:22:21.634 --> 00:22:23.596 the conversation about how 00:22:23.635 --> 00:22:24.536 you make your journeys, 00:22:24.596 --> 00:22:25.217 or for that matter, 00:22:25.257 --> 00:22:26.218 which journeys you make, 00:22:26.817 --> 00:22:30.300 can be assessed anew with, we would hope, 00:22:31.701 --> 00:22:34.083 a non-negligible shift away from the car. 00:22:35.144 --> 00:22:35.364 Yeah, 00:22:35.924 --> 00:22:38.185 we just need to recognise that that 00:22:38.246 --> 00:22:38.946 won't happen 00:22:39.484 --> 00:22:40.526 just because the new 00:22:40.586 --> 00:22:41.846 infrastructure or the new 00:22:41.906 --> 00:22:43.147 services put there, right? 00:22:43.307 --> 00:22:44.808 It needs to be complemented 00:22:45.209 --> 00:22:47.170 with some sort of promotion, 00:22:47.391 --> 00:22:48.030 encouragement, 00:22:48.151 --> 00:22:49.991 awareness of that new 00:22:50.532 --> 00:22:51.874 service or that new 00:22:51.933 --> 00:22:53.515 infrastructure that's been placed there. 00:22:53.875 --> 00:22:55.096 And I think when we divvy up 00:22:55.155 --> 00:22:56.317 funding pots at the moment 00:22:56.376 --> 00:22:57.317 and we dedicate them to 00:22:57.356 --> 00:22:58.738 those different modes of transport, 00:22:59.098 --> 00:23:00.019 we're not necessarily 00:23:00.098 --> 00:23:01.480 dedicating a funding pot to 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:03.801 also how are we going to ensure 00:23:04.412 --> 00:23:05.794 um that once it's there 00:23:05.854 --> 00:23:07.095 we're going to get maximum 00:23:07.134 --> 00:23:08.316 value out of it and really 00:23:08.336 --> 00:23:09.698 bring people forward to to 00:23:09.857 --> 00:23:12.840 use that yes well in fact 00:23:12.861 --> 00:23:14.082 this is where I i have to 00:23:14.563 --> 00:23:15.743 raise one of my complaints 00:23:15.804 --> 00:23:16.884 which is the frequency with 00:23:16.904 --> 00:23:17.826 which I hear the term 00:23:17.865 --> 00:23:19.567 behavior change used to 00:23:19.607 --> 00:23:20.888 describe communications 00:23:20.930 --> 00:23:21.911 work that's going to 00:23:21.951 --> 00:23:23.132 complement infrastructure 00:23:23.571 --> 00:23:25.894 or changes to service patterns and 00:23:27.007 --> 00:23:28.809 I lead a module on behavior change, 00:23:28.869 --> 00:23:29.971 and one of the things I 00:23:30.231 --> 00:23:31.393 browbeat the students with 00:23:31.473 --> 00:23:32.535 is the idea that the vast 00:23:32.595 --> 00:23:33.536 majority of what we do in 00:23:33.576 --> 00:23:34.377 transport is actually 00:23:34.417 --> 00:23:35.519 intended to change behavior. 00:23:36.099 --> 00:23:36.701 Some of it isn't, 00:23:36.760 --> 00:23:37.882 but the vast majority is. 00:23:38.542 --> 00:23:40.645 And so you're right. 00:23:40.946 --> 00:23:42.028 We should be thinking in an 00:23:42.087 --> 00:23:43.230 integrated way about 00:23:44.212 --> 00:23:44.593 everything. 00:23:44.673 --> 00:23:47.775 So the offer, what buses run where, 00:23:47.855 --> 00:23:48.535 what they cost, 00:23:48.634 --> 00:23:49.954 whether they're comfortable and so on, 00:23:50.435 --> 00:23:51.635 and then how we make people 00:23:51.695 --> 00:23:52.936 aware of them and whether 00:23:52.957 --> 00:23:54.836 we make people think of 00:23:54.876 --> 00:23:55.498 them as being an 00:23:55.557 --> 00:23:56.538 alternative that they would 00:23:56.557 --> 00:23:57.358 seriously consider. 00:23:57.439 --> 00:23:58.479 So all of these things have 00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:00.339 to operate in concert if 00:24:00.359 --> 00:24:01.259 we're going to achieve the 00:24:01.299 --> 00:24:01.819 change we need. 00:24:03.361 --> 00:24:04.361 And I can't miss the 00:24:04.381 --> 00:24:06.321 opportunity to remind us 00:24:06.422 --> 00:24:08.063 that we've done this before. 00:24:09.375 --> 00:24:10.434 The Department of Transport 00:24:10.474 --> 00:24:12.016 has invested a lot of money 00:24:12.036 --> 00:24:14.115 back in the mid-2000s in 00:24:14.135 --> 00:24:15.596 the sustainable travel towns, 00:24:16.096 --> 00:24:17.797 intending to really 00:24:17.856 --> 00:24:19.797 understand what proper investment, 00:24:19.836 --> 00:24:20.277 if you like, 00:24:20.317 --> 00:24:21.798 in the promotion and the 00:24:21.857 --> 00:24:23.238 encouragement for people in 00:24:23.298 --> 00:24:25.618 those three towns, which were Darlington, 00:24:25.679 --> 00:24:26.699 Peterborough and Worcester, 00:24:27.098 --> 00:24:27.939 what programmes to 00:24:27.979 --> 00:24:29.839 intensively promote those 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:31.220 towns and sustainable 00:24:31.240 --> 00:24:32.019 transport use in those 00:24:32.059 --> 00:24:33.059 towns would bring about. 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:34.421 And those programmes were 00:24:34.520 --> 00:24:35.941 very thoroughly evaluated 00:24:36.101 --> 00:24:36.621 and there was some 00:24:37.065 --> 00:24:38.306 really good outcomes. 00:24:38.365 --> 00:24:39.645 And we saw a reduction, 00:24:39.705 --> 00:24:40.666 if I recall correctly, 00:24:41.007 --> 00:24:42.788 of around a 10% reduction 00:24:42.968 --> 00:24:44.068 in car miles traveled. 00:24:44.608 --> 00:24:46.329 And so we've done this before. 00:24:46.549 --> 00:24:47.651 And we could probably do 00:24:47.730 --> 00:24:49.151 even more now with the 00:24:49.211 --> 00:24:50.451 technology advancements. 00:24:50.491 --> 00:24:51.472 We've got new modes of 00:24:51.512 --> 00:24:52.653 transport since programs 00:24:52.673 --> 00:24:53.574 like that existed. 00:24:54.153 --> 00:24:55.674 And I think these programs 00:24:55.734 --> 00:24:58.036 cost a very small part of 00:24:58.076 --> 00:24:59.057 the sum of the investment 00:24:59.297 --> 00:25:01.718 in new infrastructure or new service, 00:25:02.198 --> 00:25:03.798 and I think should be given 00:25:03.838 --> 00:25:04.720 more consideration 00:25:05.817 --> 00:25:07.117 in the new agenda I'd agree 00:25:07.157 --> 00:25:08.940 with you uh the only caveat 00:25:08.980 --> 00:25:10.560 is that in those towns not 00:25:10.601 --> 00:25:11.801 a great deal changed about 00:25:12.041 --> 00:25:14.744 the transport offer so what 00:25:14.765 --> 00:25:15.404 was achieved was 00:25:15.444 --> 00:25:16.806 significant and very 00:25:16.846 --> 00:25:17.787 impressive all things 00:25:17.846 --> 00:25:21.509 considered but the bus 00:25:21.529 --> 00:25:22.590 services remained largely 00:25:22.631 --> 00:25:24.272 the same um with some 00:25:24.313 --> 00:25:25.334 exceptions the cycling 00:25:25.634 --> 00:25:28.336 facilities were not changed 00:25:28.957 --> 00:25:31.419 so that we were able to see 00:25:31.439 --> 00:25:32.940 a change in people's behavior 00:25:34.837 --> 00:25:36.638 without significant change 00:25:36.798 --> 00:25:38.660 to the transport offer is remarkable. 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:39.940 And I suppose gives us even 00:25:39.960 --> 00:25:40.980 more confidence that if you 00:25:41.020 --> 00:25:43.362 then did a combined job of 00:25:43.981 --> 00:25:45.742 dramatically improving the 00:25:45.803 --> 00:25:47.044 public transport offer, say, 00:25:47.564 --> 00:25:48.544 or the active travel 00:25:48.704 --> 00:25:49.785 opportunities in a place 00:25:50.265 --> 00:25:52.445 and did a very decent job 00:25:52.665 --> 00:25:54.186 of the communication side of things. 00:25:54.626 --> 00:25:56.147 Well, we could see something quite special, 00:25:56.188 --> 00:25:56.387 I think. 00:25:56.607 --> 00:25:57.848 Yeah, really good. 00:25:58.429 --> 00:25:58.769 All right. 00:25:59.289 --> 00:26:00.230 Question to finish on. 00:26:00.597 --> 00:26:02.398 What are the quick wins, do you think, 00:26:02.439 --> 00:26:03.338 for the new government 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:04.880 around sustainable transport? 00:26:05.980 --> 00:26:08.761 What would you do to make ground quickly? 00:26:12.163 --> 00:26:13.545 Well, you might expect this answer, 00:26:13.845 --> 00:26:15.226 but I would say very 00:26:15.266 --> 00:26:16.205 significant money into 00:26:16.266 --> 00:26:20.749 active travel because it 00:26:21.409 --> 00:26:23.230 delivers an astonishing bang for buck. 00:26:24.085 --> 00:26:24.726 and can be done 00:26:24.885 --> 00:26:26.747 comparatively quickly when 00:26:26.787 --> 00:26:28.189 you think of the time it 00:26:28.229 --> 00:26:29.529 takes to deliver major 00:26:29.569 --> 00:26:30.550 transport infrastructure, 00:26:30.590 --> 00:26:31.692 such as a new railway line. 00:26:33.173 --> 00:26:35.654 So that would be money spent 00:26:36.476 --> 00:26:39.278 and a return seen within a 00:26:39.317 --> 00:26:40.378 very short period of time. 00:26:41.220 --> 00:26:42.240 And this obviously has huge 00:26:42.300 --> 00:26:43.842 benefits in terms of public 00:26:43.882 --> 00:26:45.663 health and air quality, 00:26:45.804 --> 00:26:48.465 quite aside from the hoped 00:26:48.526 --> 00:26:49.606 for improvements in terms 00:26:49.666 --> 00:26:51.388 of climate emissions 00:26:52.548 --> 00:26:54.250 congestion so that's where I 00:26:54.289 --> 00:26:57.873 would start the other 00:26:57.913 --> 00:26:58.732 things aren't terribly 00:26:58.792 --> 00:26:59.794 quick I would say I mean 00:26:59.834 --> 00:27:01.134 obviously it's also 00:27:01.194 --> 00:27:02.194 relatively quick to kill 00:27:02.236 --> 00:27:05.156 off road schemes so whether 00:27:05.176 --> 00:27:06.117 you would see that as a win 00:27:06.157 --> 00:27:07.118 very much depends on which 00:27:07.159 --> 00:27:08.138 side of the fence you're on 00:27:08.740 --> 00:27:10.480 I would generally say that 00:27:10.540 --> 00:27:12.642 any road scheme is going to 00:27:12.662 --> 00:27:16.444 be hard to justify so would 00:27:16.744 --> 00:27:19.586 tend to support the 00:27:19.606 --> 00:27:21.387 government in killing off 00:27:21.428 --> 00:27:22.308 as many as possible 00:27:23.628 --> 00:27:25.371 right there's an interesting 00:27:25.411 --> 00:27:26.311 piece by phil goodwin 00:27:26.372 --> 00:27:27.173 actually which you might 00:27:27.212 --> 00:27:29.335 want to look at in tapas 00:27:29.414 --> 00:27:30.635 which discusses that at 00:27:30.675 --> 00:27:32.958 some length and helpfully 00:27:33.018 --> 00:27:34.960 explores the issues okay 00:27:35.141 --> 00:27:36.882 thanks good call out and 00:27:36.922 --> 00:27:39.224 for those listening I just 00:27:39.265 --> 00:27:40.185 want to build on your 00:27:40.266 --> 00:27:41.507 active travel point and I 00:27:41.567 --> 00:27:42.428 think it's about 00:27:43.942 --> 00:27:44.962 not talking about active 00:27:44.982 --> 00:27:46.544 travel as just a mode in itself, 00:27:46.604 --> 00:27:48.284 but it's the potential for active travel, 00:27:48.304 --> 00:27:48.923 isn't it, 00:27:49.144 --> 00:27:50.865 to further build on bus and rail 00:27:50.904 --> 00:27:52.204 journeys and everything else. 00:27:52.384 --> 00:27:53.465 It's not just for those 00:27:53.526 --> 00:27:54.925 people who can travel short 00:27:54.945 --> 00:27:56.125 distance by active travel. 00:27:56.266 --> 00:27:58.186 It's its importance in 00:27:58.307 --> 00:27:59.747 enabling people to also use 00:27:59.787 --> 00:28:00.767 public transport to 00:28:00.787 --> 00:28:02.647 providing that non-car access. 00:28:03.688 --> 00:28:05.148 Well, thank you for making that point, 00:28:05.229 --> 00:28:06.249 and you're absolutely right. 00:28:07.188 --> 00:28:08.969 The first point is that we 00:28:09.028 --> 00:28:10.971 must remember walking has a 00:28:11.391 --> 00:28:12.751 huge contribution to make here, 00:28:12.811 --> 00:28:13.432 and it's something which 00:28:13.472 --> 00:28:14.773 Chris Boardman has identified, 00:28:14.874 --> 00:28:15.534 as have others. 00:28:16.095 --> 00:28:18.416 Because walking is so much 00:28:18.457 --> 00:28:19.718 more prominent in our 00:28:19.778 --> 00:28:21.459 overall travel habits than cycling, 00:28:21.838 --> 00:28:23.641 that is where the gains can be made. 00:28:24.060 --> 00:28:26.682 And it's such a cliche, it's almost 00:28:27.491 --> 00:28:28.232 painful to say it, 00:28:28.292 --> 00:28:29.393 but walking or wheeling 00:28:29.874 --> 00:28:32.336 play a part in pretty much 00:28:32.415 --> 00:28:33.896 every journey and certainly 00:28:33.936 --> 00:28:35.057 play a part in every public 00:28:35.097 --> 00:28:35.778 transport journey. 00:28:36.057 --> 00:28:36.419 So yes, 00:28:36.558 --> 00:28:38.500 if you improve active travel and 00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:39.221 you do it right, 00:28:39.621 --> 00:28:41.583 you are vastly aiding the 00:28:41.702 --> 00:28:42.963 public transport network in 00:28:43.003 --> 00:28:44.545 its prospects of A, 00:28:45.265 --> 00:28:48.067 being at least breaking 00:28:48.146 --> 00:28:50.669 even or maybe even turning a profit and B, 00:28:51.569 --> 00:28:52.750 achieving the goal of 00:28:53.111 --> 00:28:54.051 supporting a lot of the 00:28:54.092 --> 00:28:55.333 strategic movement which is 00:28:55.373 --> 00:28:56.854 currently being taken, made by CAR. 00:28:58.734 --> 00:29:00.215 going to add one very quick 00:29:00.296 --> 00:29:01.916 other point another ask for 00:29:01.997 --> 00:29:04.298 me is is very simple and 00:29:04.357 --> 00:29:05.358 really doesn't need to cost 00:29:05.398 --> 00:29:06.559 much money is bringing 00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:07.839 together the good work that 00:29:07.880 --> 00:29:08.840 we already do because 00:29:09.040 --> 00:29:10.301 actually there is a good 00:29:10.342 --> 00:29:11.603 work a lot of good work in 00:29:11.643 --> 00:29:12.603 sustainable transport 00:29:12.663 --> 00:29:13.523 happening in different 00:29:13.564 --> 00:29:14.584 local authorities around 00:29:14.624 --> 00:29:16.085 the country and there are 00:29:16.305 --> 00:29:17.346 different local authorities 00:29:17.425 --> 00:29:19.086 reinventing that wheel and 00:29:19.146 --> 00:29:20.307 too often starting again 00:29:20.327 --> 00:29:21.407 from the beginning so let's 00:29:21.448 --> 00:29:23.028 get more sharing of the 00:29:23.088 --> 00:29:24.789 good practice that's out there um 00:29:26.218 --> 00:29:27.519 shared in the public domain 00:29:27.699 --> 00:29:28.799 and with local authority 00:29:28.819 --> 00:29:29.901 offices easily able to 00:29:29.980 --> 00:29:30.882 access that and I think 00:29:30.922 --> 00:29:31.883 that could really help us 00:29:31.923 --> 00:29:33.523 move forward quickly I'm 00:29:33.544 --> 00:29:34.444 going to get into trouble 00:29:34.505 --> 00:29:37.086 if I don't wind us up soon 00:29:37.227 --> 00:29:38.468 so I want to say a huge 00:29:38.508 --> 00:29:40.288 thank you to you tom for 00:29:40.308 --> 00:29:41.210 giving us your time and 00:29:41.250 --> 00:29:42.151 participating in this 00:29:42.211 --> 00:29:43.392 discussion and sharing your 00:29:43.551 --> 00:29:45.232 insight and thanks also to 00:29:45.294 --> 00:29:46.994 our audience for joining in 00:29:47.095 --> 00:29:48.615 too so we have a further 00:29:48.655 --> 00:29:49.916 session planned for today 00:29:50.037 --> 00:29:51.858 at two o'clock on the future of buses 00:29:52.414 --> 00:29:53.634 specifically with regards to 00:29:53.674 --> 00:29:54.976 funding and franchising. 00:29:55.175 --> 00:29:56.395 So please do join us again 00:29:56.435 --> 00:29:57.336 later for that one. 00:29:57.757 --> 00:29:58.336 And next week, 00:29:58.376 --> 00:29:59.477 we've got our final session 00:29:59.537 --> 00:30:01.117 coming up on rail. 00:30:01.258 --> 00:30:01.637 There we go. 00:30:01.678 --> 00:30:03.259 I'm being all mode specific again. 00:30:03.679 --> 00:30:05.118 If you haven't signed up for that one, 00:30:05.819 --> 00:30:06.960 please visit our website. 00:30:07.420 --> 00:30:09.121 So with that, it's a goodbye from Tom. 00:30:10.921 --> 00:30:11.761 Thanks very much for having me. 00:30:12.321 --> 00:30:12.862 Thank you, Tom. 00:30:13.021 --> 00:30:13.862 And a goodbye from me. 00:30:13.961 --> 00:30:14.962 Thank you, everybody. 00:30:14.982 --> 00:30:15.762 Bye-bye.